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APBT - Loves to fight?

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by Alma, Jun 2, 2011.

  1. Alma

    Alma GRCH Dog

    So I was reading this thread..

    a discussion i had yesterday

    And the topic came up about the APBT and its love of fighting. Well, Im not sure I would call it "love". To me its more like instinct or a reaction. This got me wondering what other thought of the genetic disposition of DA in the APBT. Are they this way because they LOVE to fight, or are they this way for another reason?

    What do you all think?
     
  2. DieselPitBull

    DieselPitBull Good Dog

    This is going to be a good thread
     
  3. Adrianne

    Adrianne Big Dog

    "But... they wag their tail..." lol


    brb I need popcorn.
     
  4. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    Absolutely. As I said in that thread, Rita is not truly DA. She has a few dogs she loves to pal around with. She sees strange dogs and "turns on". I am working on getting her to be less of an ass, but its sllooow going.

    Now, she has a nemesis. Marley, the APBT mix male next door. If I leash her up because I know he is outside when mine have to go potty, open the door and she sees him at the fence she will start a horrible racket. Crying, squeeling (LOUD), whining, tugging pulling...horrible. She wants nothing more than to tear him up. When we weren't aware she had come into her own we let her out and she went right for him. She hurt herself on the fence in the attempt before we were able to get her leashed and into the house. She didn't care about the blood on her face or her cuts, she cared about getting back out there and killing that other dog. Period. We now have to look to see if he is outside, leash her up, and be damned sure to keep her well away from the fence. Through training with treats (something she wants) for tricks (something I want) she has decided that if she does her behaviors maybe I will let her have a go at the other dog. She begs and pleads, does all the behaviors she knows ( sit, down, sit pretty) in succession and then tries to go at the fence. She, in my opinion, really does think that if she hits just the right behavior I will reward her with a good brawl. I am trying to get it through her head that I want her to ignore the other dog and behave calmly, but not having much success yet.

    A few years ago, I would have agreed with the people who think dogs only fight to please their masters and that it is a cruel or barbaric sport. Now that I have a dog who wants to fight, who becomes depressed and listless when we take her away from the opportunity to fight and who knows damn well that this desire to fight does NOT please me or my husband, I admit my opinion has changed.

    Its also sad to me that we bred dogs for purposes and now we have decided that we, being a good chunk of society, do not approve of these purposes anymore. No hunting, no matching, no guarding..BAH! Did you know that you cannot go to a Humane Society in MI and tell them you want to adopt a dog as a guard dog, even if the breed or mix of breeds you are interested in was bred for just that purpose? They will refuse to adopt to you because they believe you will be an irresponsible dog owner who will neglect your dog simply because you are using said dog in its historical capacity. This makes no sense to me. I would be proud to own a dog that I rescued who was serving the purpose of guarding home and family and i would consider that a good relationship to have. Dog and I are friends and partners. He does his job and in return I give affection, exercise, training, food and shelter. Isn't that what the human-canine bond is supposed to be? I was personally turned down by the Dearborn Humane Society because I told them I wanted a large dog to act as both companion and guardian while my husband was over the road driving a truck and I was home alone with my kids. I own my home, have a fenced in yard and wanted a dog who would sleep with me at night, be my buddy during the day and that would act as a deterrent, alert me to possible danger and protect us if need arose. Shelters would rather have a dog languish there in a cage or be euthanized than allow them to be adopted and put to work at what they were bred to do!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2011
  5. Alma

    Alma GRCH Dog

    Interesting MJ, I always love your opinions.

    Im still on the fence about referring to this drive to dominate as "love". I can see what youre talking about though since Jesse is the same way. She gets that big bully grin whenever she gets fired up at another dog, but I chalk that up to excitement, not love. Understand my confusion?
     
  6. rguerra

    rguerra Big Dog

    I think they fight for the same reason retrievers retrieve, and beagles dig, and basenjis howl, and kick back at the dirt after they poo (at least mines does this from time to time).
     
  7. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    Yes, Alma, I do! I was there myself not too long ago. Then I started really noticing Rita's total behavior. Some of it is definately excitement and some of it is true desire to fight. I would think it was just excitement and breed purpose kicking in if it wasn't for the begging, pleading, attempts to give me behaviors that usually get her what she wants and absolute depression for a while after I take her away from whatever other dog she is trying to have a go at. She also acts the same way when trying to catch and kill vermin. She will go until i stop her in attempt to catch a rat or bunny and when she actually flushes one out, chases it and it gets away she also gets really bummed. Lots of sighing, head down, moping type stuff.

    I believe some dogs within the breed have no desire to fight, some would do it because they are driven to by instinct that we bred into them and there are others who see fighting as a joyous thing.
     
  8. Alma

    Alma GRCH Dog

    AHA!! Now this I can embrace! The concept is making me giddy, seriously! I've never been around a game bred dog, but i can see how they would be more apt to actually enjoy the fight more so then your average run of the mill pit bull, such as mine.

    Ive been working with a rescued with a extremely DA pit mix. He will attack and try to kill anything that gets within 10 feet of him. I classify him as Dominate Aggressive and his need to fight is driven by his want to remain top dog. For him, its instinct. For Jesse its the same, just not to the same extreme. Lance though, with his FA will fight because hes threatened, not because he wants to.

    Thanks for breaking it down!! :D
     
  9. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    Retrievers love to swim... herders love to herd... terriers love to dig... etc etc etc
     
  10. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    I have no idea of Rita's breeding. She came from a BYB friend of my brother who honestly has no business owning or breeding dogs. He let my brother take her at 3 weeks, the parents weren't worked or fought or health tested for anything including regular dog things like HW or other parasites. I would never dare call her game bred.

    She was raised with 2 other dogs in the house and many friends and family members dogs to play with on a regular basis including mine and my sisters. She got along with everyone, canine or human, and sees each day as a good day to be alive as long as she isn't required to be alive before 8am at earliest. She is a bit herpderp and "simple dog", but she became DS at about 2 years and a few months old and she really lights up, shines with energy and purpose and happiness at the mere thought of a good fight or a good hunt. Willing, yes. Able, maybe. Game bred? Nope.

    If I have this much trouble with her, I can only imagine what owners of true game bred dogs go though to train and prevent fights.
     
  11. monkeys23

    monkeys23 GRCH Dog

    I concur wholeheartedly...
     
  12. DieselPitBull

    DieselPitBull Good Dog

    i also agree
     
  13. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    Quote: I believe some dogs within the breed have no desire to fight, some would do it because they are driven to by instinct that we bred into them and there are others who see fighting as a joyous thing.


    I agree with this 100%! Over the years I've had some collies that had such strong hearding instincts they acted just like some APBT's when they see another dog. I've also had some who couldn't care less about getting out there and herding. I have also seen some APBT's who had absolutely no DA at all, while others couldn't contain themselves if a dog was just within eyesight. But, I will say this..... I have seen some APBT's pulled from fights that were every bit as happy about the job they just did as any collie I pulled out of the pen from bringing in a herd of sheep. They all have the same happy look of satisfaction for a job well done. Not sure I would go so far as to say they love it, but they sure go out of their way to be a part of the action, in both cases.
     
  14. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    From my personal experience with my dog and my sisters, as well as my friends/family's dogs. SOME APBT love to fight. My friends dogs were severe DA but only the two towards each other. Male and Female. Anytime they saw each other they would "act nice" and the dumb owner would let them out and BAM they would go at it, tails wagging and shit. Its not like one didnt want to and the other did, they both full force would slam into each other. When you would get them apart they would be the happiest dog you have ever seen.

    Same with my sisters puppy. She is already so DA at like 12 weeks they have to lock a FULL GROWN Lab up in the back bedroom because this puppy will attack it with everything its got.

    I think some of the dogs do love it, as with anything, some dont.
     
  15. Lee D

    Lee D Good Dog

    i dont know if "love" is the word id use. i dont know if dogs really love anything. thats a real tough word to define, but what i do know is that if i leave the house Riot will ball like a sissy, bounce from window to window trying to figure out where i went. he suffered when i have went on the road in the past to work. according to Mindy he doesnt eat, he becomes restless and becomes a diferent dog. is that "love"? more like seperation anxiety disorder imo, so use of the word love might be incorrect.
    that being said, i can tell you how he acts when pulled out of a scrap...he balls like a sissy, loses focus on anything including me, and wants nothing but to be let loose.... to go back to war. ive seen this many many times when i take him out coyote hunting. that not a coyote to him, its just another dog his size willing to fight. he doesnt identify other dogs by breed, just sex. he wants at almost all males and if i was to just let him out, like many other APBTs hed sooner go look for a fight than anything else in this world. does that mean he "loves" to fight? im guess im not sure
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2011
  16. Blau

    Blau Big Dog

    end of thread.
     
  17. Alma

    Alma GRCH Dog

    Thats funny that people keep quoting that.. especially because of the last part... My terriers dont love to dig, so Im a bit confused. There are many pit bulls that do not want to fight, then there are some, like those mentioned who want to so badly that they can see/think of nothing else. Then there are those in between. Im more interested in what peoples opinions are on the apbt's want to engage in fight and what the driving force is behind it. As Lee stated, Im not sure its "love", but more like an instinct or plain drive or genetics. MJ seemed to nail it for me.. though I think the same can be said for all working breeds.
     
  18. Blau

    Blau Big Dog

    Well, I think of it as-
    Not ALL bulldogs want to fight. When I tell people 'Well, they're bred to be DA, so you shouldn't be surprised when it turns out DA' their first response is 'So you're insinuating that ALL bully breeds are DA?', which would be stupid... But if a dog is bred to be a certain way and have a certain behaviour for hundreds [and sometimes thousands, in the case of sight hound and molosser breeds], you shouldn't be surprised when a dog exhibits those behaviours.
    Does that mean ALL dogs of a certain breed/group MUST exhibit said behaviours? Of course not... Every dog is an individual. I know plenty of people who have bulldogs that never turned on. And dogs from the same litter who are amazingly fired up around any other animal.

    I think that a fired up bulldog certainly does want to fight; why else would he be trying so hard to get to the other dog as soon as he sees it? :P Dogs are brilliant in that they DO share emotions as humans do, and that's part of the reason we relate. Yes, genetics obviously play a factor in it, but I think of genetics as the power source, and the dog's 'wanting' as the light switch. If that makes... Any sense whatsoever. I have a hard time wording things lmao.
     
  19. Alma

    Alma GRCH Dog

    You had me until
    to which I disagree strongly. I dont believe dogs have emotions, only instinct, I believe people apply human emotions to dogs.

    Why would one dog want to get at another? Lots of reasons.. dominance, fear, excitement just to name a few. None of which say to me that the dog actually loves fighting. Am I making sense? :confused:
     
  20. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    I can tell you that in the herding world we call it instinct. Do they still have the instinct or has it been bred out of them. Guess that is why we call it "Herding Instinct Testing". There are bloodlines that still have that instinct and others that don't have it any longer. If someone wants a dog specifically for herding they go to those specific breeders.
     

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