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Amstaff's Noses

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by CoolHandJean, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Know I was told and taught that Amstaff only had black noses. If it had a red nose, it wasn't an Amstaff, but an APBT...
    I also read this on the AKC Breed Standard:
    "Head
    Medium length, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop; and ears are set high. Ears - Cropped or uncropped, the latter preferred. Uncropped ears should be short and held rose or half prick. Full drop to be penalized. Eyes - Dark and round, low down in skull and set far apart. No pink eyelids. Muzzle - Medium length, rounded on upper side to fall away abruptly below eyes. Jaws well defined. Underjaw to be strong and have biting power. Lips close and even, no looseness. Upper teeth to meet tightly outside lower teeth in front. Nose definitely black."

    I saw on the picture section on this site that someone had a dog for Adoption with a red nose and they were calling it an Amstaff. So, I went to the site...

    I wrote them this e-mail:
    "Two dogs, you have listed as American Staffordshire Terriers, aren't. Amstaffs don't have red noses, only American Pit Bull Terriers do. They are Cherry and Dollie. Just thought I'd let you know...Also, keep up the excellent job. Looks like you have done a lot of good."

    I received this e-mail back:
    "They were both owner turn ins not shelter dogs so we know the breeds - plus we have a champion sired, ten generation red nosed AmStaff (photo attached) as well as her entire litter of puppies, half of which were "red nosed"."

    Did I miss something? Am I totally off on the whole red-nose thing? If so, let me know. What's going on?
     
  2. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I replied with:
    " In the AKC he is championed? That is surprising...
    Plus the AKC breed standard."'

    They replied:
    "Yes, they were $2000 dogs that went out as rescue puppies; spayed and neutered.

    Pit Bull is not even a breed of dog but a slang term used for a group of dogs

    If I think it's a Pit (because we don't have history) I list them as such - I also know the breed temperaments (well) and breed traits - when we get in a "mutt" I use that as part of my breed assessment

    There are very distinct differences between "Pits", Molossers and Staffies -

    Don't get me started on the AKC, as far as "papers" go they're good for one thing - in the puppy pen."

    I replied back:
    "Pit Bull isn't a breed of dog, correct, it is a term that has become as common as hound or retriever, including but not limited to the breeds, Amstaffs, APBT, American Bullies, Bull Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. However, the American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed. I know my Bully breeds very well also. I own an American Pit Bull Terrier, and I own an American Staffordshire Terrier...
    I understand that papers don't make or break the dog, but you said that the one was championed out, which registry champed her as an Red-nose Amstaff?"
     
  3. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    ukc dual registers as amstaff/ apbt..

    akc only does amstaffs, but i thought they only allowed black noses as well..

    and, you cant dual register a dog if it isnt registered with the AKC FIRST.. if its registered ukc first you cant register it with akc.. if its registered as AKC amstaff you can dual register it with ukc as apbt.. but if its only registered as ukc apbt you cant dual it akc.. the breeder has to be both dual as well.
     
  4. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    That's what I thought...
    To me, they are two different breeds. I know to some, they are the same, but she said it champed out as an Amstaff. So to my understand, it would have to be AKC to champ as an Amstaff, instead of an APBT. Most of the other registries count them as APBT, right? Or no?
     
  5. kiaransimba

    kiaransimba Good Dog

    Okay I'm confused...lol (is new to the breed thing) is an American staffordshire terrier the same as an Amstaff? If thats the case I was told that is what my pup is and she has a red nose with a dark black line all across the top. I guess this really doesn't have anything to do with your post but I was curious as to what you were saying.
     
  6. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Yep, an Amstaff is an American Staffordshire Terrier....

    Your pup has a red nose and is AKC registered? How old is your pup? It just might have not turned completely black yet. Hawken had a pink nose for a little while.
     
  7. kiaransimba

    kiaransimba Good Dog

    Yep Kiara has a red nose, Shes not reg cuz the guy I got her from just wanted a pet I have the option to reg but I personally don't care. Kiara is 16 wks, dam and sire weere reg tho with ADBA?, AKC, and dam is a red nose, sire has a red nose but half black as well.
     
  8. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Personally , I'm not big on registering. I considered the ADBA ( American Dog Breeders Association ) to be the true APBT registry. None of the traits can accurately determine " PITBULL ". Pups can come out of the same litter & have red & or black noses.

    This fact makes the whole debate moot. That is nothing more than a color gene. Folks who debate that issue , IMO , really don't know what these Dogs are about.

    I don't care how many Champions , papers , ...etc.

    IMO , ( Keep in mind , I am considered wrong )
    ( APBT ) Pitbull = Gamebred
    Amstaff = look bred
     
  9. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I understand that papers aren't everything...But I've heard that Amstaffs don't have red noses. The question is, is that true, yes or no. I'd say, "yes" because the AKC says, "Nose definitely Black", but is there another registry besides the AKC that registers Amstaffs as Amstaffs. If so, then I could see that, maybe that is where the red nose is allowed. If not, it would appear to me that no, Amstaffs don't have red noses, only APBTs do.
     
  10. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Technical Mambo Jombo. IMO. Not to downplay registering , but in my experiance , it doesn't affect the quality 1 bit.

    Looks rate far behind of what I look for in a dog. Papers , red nose ,blue , ...etc , are more for the owners benifits.

    If you are showing the dog's , the organizations rules matter. These organizations are in it for the $$$. Money corrupts. ( JMHO )

    I remember back in the 80's , all you had to do to get AKC / UKC ( Not sure ) papers , was to pay a fee , take pictures & submit a hand written pedigree. In my eyes , they blew all credibility with me.

    Truthfully speaking , now a days , one registry is just as good as the other. Infact , I actually respect a newer registry more than some of the older one's.

    Bonafide Kennel Club.

    I think they only register APBT's. The down side is, when it comes to BSL , you have a chance to argue on your dogs behalf " Mixed Breed ". If they some how get ahold of your papers , that argument will fail.

    ( Just my $.02)
     
  11. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Okay, you are missing the point, but thank you for playing.
     
  12. maximusflys

    maximusflys Little Dog

    Yes an Amstaff can have a red nose but it is considered a fault so there is no way a rednose amstaff could be championed.
     
  13. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Okay, thank you. lol. So, you can have an AKC rednose Amstaff, but it wouldn't place. Makes sense.

    I just sent them this e-mail:
    "OKay, I have spoken to many of the people I consider well versed in the breed. I have an apology to make, though you might have been bamboozled as well. An Amstaff can have a red nose, but it's considered a fault, so a Red-Nosed Amstaff would never be champed out."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  14. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Sorry , CoolHandJean,

    I was just aswering the best I could. I'm not very technical. I think Maximusflys answered it better.

    That leaves the ? unanswered:

    "They were both owner turn ins not shelter dogs so we know the breeds - plus we have a champion sired, ten generation red nosed AmStaff (photo attached) as well as her entire litter of puppies, half of which were "red nosed"."

    Somebody made the wrong call. Sadly , this what happens with subjective championships , instead of objective. ( IE : Pulling ,...etc )

    Subjective Champions = Paper Champions

    ( JMHO... Keep in mind , I am considered wrong. )
     
  15. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I get what you are saying. I agree that papers don't make a dog. I was just trying to get cleared up, because I thought they just didn't have red nose, like down the line when Amstaffs and APBT split, they only used black nose dogs.
     
  16. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    You got me thinking. Why did they split?
     
  17. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    My guess is much like your reasoning above.
    The American Pit Bull Terrier was made for the pit.
    The American Staffordshire Terrier was made for the show ring.
     
  18. Patch O' Pits

    Patch O' Pits Good Dog

    There are AmStaffs who certainly have other color noses besides black like already mentioned.

    I do not show AKC but this is what I have noticed.

    There are also plenty of blue and blue fawn AKC CH and guess what none of those dogs have black noses. They have blue ones LOL.
    Though some judges will not put up a blue and blue fawn in AKC because they truly follow what the standard calls for most seem not to have an issue with it however they realllllllly frown on a red nose in the ring.

    This is a question that has been asked over and over on many forums.

    The best I could gather is because AKC wanted to dissociate with the name and stereotype of the APBT they also changed some of the standard to suit what they wanted the AKC dogs.

    I don't know any reputable AKC breeders who purposely breed for red nose pups. I have seen them pop up in litters when not expected and also have seen plenty of BYBs advertising them.
     
  19. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Thanks for the Info, Patch o' Pits....
    Yeah, I guess since the blue is a diluted black, they count it...
     
  20. Teal

    Teal Krypto Super Dog Premium Member

    I used to show in AKC, and talked to several Am Staff breeders. The take I got on it is that red noses are "classic" APBT style, and that red noses are frowned upon because it made the dogs harder to distinguish from APBT - which is what they want.

    But yes, red nosed Am Staffs do happen. And when they do, the breeders I talked to said they are sold on s/n pet contracts. Of course, not every breeder is going to do that... but that's what the responsible ones do.
     

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