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Ambra Discussion

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by Dray, May 7, 2009.

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  1. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    So....... Without turning this healthy debate into anything more (and as i haven't been able to log out of her for the last 36hrs :eek:)

    The Question would be....for all to answer

    What detriment these changes have caused over the last 50 years?? or indeed what benefits??

    I appreciate the look is "different" some may say "ugly" but we shall say beauty is in the eye of the beholder for that one!

    I feel i can not comment personally as i said previous i do not have enough knowledge within the breed, particularly not 50 yrs ago. I will say though IMO only i find the temprement of todays BT has benifitted for the lifestyles we lead today & i feel with decent breeders & available health tests.... that were not available years ago things should be surely looking up :confused:

    I like a fit dog but not in excess, if this whole thread has escalated from a sport then surely its a "we'll agree to differ" on how fit we think they need to be. If we are talking Health issues your answers will educate me further i'm sure :cool:
  2. Dray

    Dray Bull Terrier Moderator

    As i have asked you as many times why todays Bull Terrier does not benefit. You put your vast knowledge down for all to see and maybe then i will show you mine;)
    You come across as a bully, i was bullied at school, i will not be bullied at 37 so if you do not wish to state each part of the dog that you deem exaggurated, also why you feel today's Bull Terrier suffers, due to this change then i suggest we have no more to say to each other:no2:

    I think the PM's were better as you had no audience;)
  3. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    Audience ? Bully ?...have i not been polite to you both on here and via the pm questions you sent me ?
    Have i brought up your family,children or private life ?.......

    Are you aware this is the internet !!! how its possible to bully someone on a computer is beyond me....but i guess your defenssive attitude is another clever cover up for the fact that you point blank refuse to answer questions...........from where im sitting you have been perfectly happy dray to come out with all your opinions on everything bull terrier....long before i came along....reading your posts some folk would have thought you an expert......
    myself i find it real easy to see bullshit even when i cant smell it and i knew from day 1 the type of dog owner you was by your naive sometimes idiotic views......

    your basic dog knowledge and understanding is very low....." when the dogs ribs spring " :rolleyes:....." what is a dogs stop " :rolleyes:........just a few small examples.....
    however we all learn as each day passes and for that their is no problem.....but you try to cover up this basic lack of knowledge with stuff you have read from books as if what you read is " your view " !!!

    so you want reasons for how the bull terrier breed is not what it used to be...........and then you,ll answer my question....my god how childish....

    back in a mo
  4. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    ok now where was we......oh yes dray you want me to state what i have already stated at least 6 or 7 times......you may think im a fool....but i promise you im not...and i can tell just like anyone else can when someone doesnt quite know what to say and so tries to get out of answering a question......
    now lets be straight here...nobody else is looking i imagine most folk lost interest in this thread way back !.....

    you now want me to reiterate what i have already clearly stated many times in this thread of reasons for why todays bull terrier is not a patch on yesterdays.......
    i have stated these reasons at least 6 times.....read back over the whole thread if you cant remember.
    on the other hand you have not stated your reasons once ! thats a fact.

    dray cut the bullshit....if you cant answer then be a man and say " i cant answer "....if you have an answer then have some conviction about yourself and back up what you believe.....

    Of what benefit to the dogs are the obvious physical exaggerations put in place over the last 50 years and supported by people like you ?....how do the dogs benefit ? this was a change made by man ( in the name of fashion in my opinion ) which is morally wrong.........you tell me how its right and how the dogs have benefitted from such drastic physical exaggerations ?
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2009
  5. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    Well Mr Clueless the above was not quite what i was expecting :no2: I actually thought you were going to state your reasons but instead you appear to have done the same as you are accusing Dray of.

    Much has been wrote in this thread and apart from you mentioning the BT head being much like a clowns - caused by human for the purpose of fashion i don't recall any other comment from yourself about the detriment caused to the BT of today. You have also if i recall voiced your opinion on how they are fat & lazy, which of course is an issue, but not true of all todays BT's only some. Some things are fat n some are skinny & surely in some cases that may well be down to metabolism :confused: i dunno.

    Are these the only two things you feel have disabled the breed or have i missed something and need to read the entire 8 pages again?

    There are 2 sides to every coin and it's what you have been brought up to understand and believe, this doesn't make one right or wrong

    My Hubby & I, brought up in same town, I presume like yourself I pronounce coin like coyn..... my hubby on the other hand pronounces it Co-In & is insistant i don't know how to say it:rolleyes: who is right :confused: I do know i feel strongly that i am and could smash his head in whenever he says it:lol::lol:
  6. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    well personally i think a picture tells a thousand words.....and im sure most would agree the pictures posted earlier in the thread show the differences with no real need for words......
    but what the heck....its late and the footballs finished so.......

    these are physical changes only....

    1. The most obvious being the extreme change in head shape which is of no benefit whatsoever to bull terriers or any dog breeds.....

    there is absolutely no evidence to say that an egg shaped head is of benefit to dogs
    so one can only presume it was done for fashion purposes.

    2. Todays dogs have been bred with much thicker denser bone.....this equates to a dog of much wider/heavier proportions....................which in itself is of disadvantage to a dog with regards to athleticsm and ease of movement and general agility........

    again,there is absolutely no evidence to say this is of benefit to dogs
    so again one can only presume it was done for fashion purposes.

    3.Todays dogs have been bred much lower to the ground and of shorter leg......this along with number 2 result in a far less agile dog.

    4.Todays dogs are discouraged from vigorous physical exercise....which along with numbers 2 and 3 have resulted in a dog with substantial less natural vigour....the nature of genetics dictates that over generations dogs on the average will revert to type.......in other words.....dogs bred over the genrations to be active vigorous dogs will be genetically capable of continually reproducing stock of similar qualities................when dogs over the generations are only encouraged to sit on the sofa ( for example ) they lose much of the genetic ability to produce vigorous athletic dogs........

    as another example......a child born from obese parents,who were in turn born from obese parents......is genetically unlikely to be of natural athletic prowess..........that is just nature.......

    so when you get almost an entire dog breed bred along these lines,the chances are they will be changed in the main....................

    now i believe that these changes are all of detriment to the breed known as the bull terrier and i challenge any sensible person to explain how these changes could possibly be for the betterment of the breed.

    incidentally,these points are all aside from the obvious ridiculous " look " of the dogs that is like no other breed in the dog kingdom........these points are also aside from the just as drastic mental changes.....ie,a dog of lazy mind,lack of drive,very little willingness to work,no determination,no courage or staying power...............in fact pretty much everything that once held the bull terrier breed in such high regard !.......

    but lets just concentrate on physical change for now.............so what has been the reason for these changes and of what benefit to the dog are they......dogs dont choose a partner...dogs dont choose a lifestyle......they are in our hands.......so what did they get out of these drastic changes...................................dogs dont know fashion remember !
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2009
  7. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    Thankyou for replying, your opinion has been educating, however..... just a thought & by no means a "that makes it alright then" kind of thought..... if a baby is born with only one arm for instance does this baby actually know it's only got one arm?? Is it less able to do anything by the age of 3 that a child with 2 arms can? (in terms of general living) the honest answer is No, you take what you have, adapt & live a full healthy life just the same because that is you & you don't know any different.

    Bring on the benefits :eek::D:D
  8. Dray

    Dray Bull Terrier Moderator

    You know so much more than i do, but your knowledge is about something that does not interest me and i have never professed to be a Bull Terrier Guru, just an enthusiast and someone who would never see two dogs fighting as anything other than sickening:(
    I know as much as i need to know and can spot a good dog when i see one. I also know all i need to know when it comes down to serious health issues in today's Bull Terriers, mainly brought on by selfish breeders who only breed for finacial reasons and never for the good of the breed. Also today's Bull Terriers are constantly falling into the wrong hands. Having said that waht i view to be wrong, you would probably see right;)

    Catch you in a mo

    ---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

    I stated when you first asked, that i have no way of answering your question as i was not around 50 years ago, you may of been, but i wasn't.
    I have no desire to own a fighting dog, lets not beat around the bush, your type of dog is not mine because we also come from different backgrounds. I cannot say that the circle of dogs that you are around are happier than mine and vice versa.
    You are actually asking me or trying to tell me that my dogs are unfit, basically fit for nothing. Well that is yet again, just your opinion;)

    I hope for all the people who used to post in this thread, that you feel that i have tried to be honest from the start. While i admit that i have best avoided the questions betrothed upon me until my good friend offered his opinion:rolleyes:

    I think this thread has now finished:lol: or has it;)
  9. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    you see the thing is kingy.......call me old fashioned but i believe in at least making a concsious effort to improve.....regardless of the subject most people will always try to improve whether it be their standard of living....their physical appearance.....their own intelligence....whatever it may be most people want to improve........
    when it comes to making decisions for those who cannot make decisions themself......do you not think that if we genuinely have their best interests at heart we should try with our knowledge and common sense.....to improve them ?

    surely we should not PURPOSELY try to effect them in a nagative way through the choices WE make for those who cannot make choices themself ?

    your point about a 1 armed child........what a ludicrous thing to say !....of course a 1 armed child cannot do what a 2 armed child can thats why we have words in existence such as " handicapped ".......
    now why on earth would any sensible person TRY to have a child with only 1 arm ???.....being handicapped is not a good thing !......clearly you are comparing a 1 armed as opposed to 2 armed child........to a fit and healthy bull terrier as opposed to a pathetically exaggerated and physically limited bull terrier................

    so i say again if it were possible would you purposely try for a 1 arm child in preference to a 2 armed child ?.....of course you wouldnt because it is not only wrong but the complete and total opposite to evolution ( whatever that word is i dont know )

    it is the most unnatural and plain stupid thing possible,so why praise it up just because its dogs !.....yes kingy you might be able to get around adequately.....but if by your very nature you was a good athlete and good physical specimen......to purposely then try not to be would just be wrong !......i dont think you really understand how genetics as it relates to evolution works......of course my example about obese parents gr parents was a very basic example.......but as another very basic example.....how do you think the great dane or the chihuaha evolved ? they evolved from reproducing the extremes of their genetic make up.....reproducing physical extremes over many generations will change the overall " look " of a breed.......great danes are bigger now than they have ever been but not as big as they will be in 50 years....you understand ?.....the bull terrier head has been changed over the generation through the exact procedure i have just explained...its not magic....it was mans decision to do this !...the head the body the attitude who cares....surely to make such drastic changes there has to be very good reason and great benefit to the dogs to mess with nature like that...............and theres no reason.

    i guess some people just choose to see whatever they want to see and try to justify things that cannot be justified .....again.....i live by an old saying

    the definition of ignorance is to do something without knowing better
    the definition of stupid is to no better but do it anyway

    ---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------




    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2009
  10. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    :rofl:I'm sorry i can't help but smile at your reply

    Yes i agree a ludicrous thing to say but i was trying to make the point.... you keep saying that the BT is not happy today/wouldn't thank you for its changes, all i was saying is that it's quite happy & isn't aware of such changes as it wasn't here 50 years ago & they don't really "do" photo's :lol: & of course i didn't choose my husband with the aim of producing a 1 arm child but then again he isn't health tested nor gods gift to women, i chose him for his temprement ;) (i guess i'm lucky having 2 beautiful, healthy & slim girls)

    As it goes i'm brunette & fully aware how the Great Dane came to be.

    TBH my origional posting in this thread was aimed at the excessiveness of exercise some people expose their dogs to, which IMO is not necessary.

    From my first posting i have understood your reasonings - and said so, i certainly am not condoning harmful standards be bred into any breed let alone the BT, and yes there have been obvious changes but i feel you portrait them to be something they are not/far worse than they are.

    I am sure you will be able to point out just how "worse" they are & that i really know nothing about it....... please feel free, after all i'm here to learn ;)
  11. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    so has this now become a tag team effort ? if so your partner has become very quiet since realising there is now no way out of answering my very basic question......surprise surprise.......

    now kingy....you sound a sensible enough person.....in which case i am sure you will realise how with your last reply you just answered your own question.....

    when you spoke of this 1 armed child you said how does the child know it only has 1 arm......well ok i,ll go with the theory that the child cant count and nobody told him/her ( not mocking the disabled here by the way just trying to make a point );).....in relation to a bull terrier who didnt know that 50 years ago he was a far more agile and generally superior physical specimen to what he is today......like you say " he doesnt know "......which is true.....

    but is that fair ???? keeping in mind they didnt accidentally stumble upon this lower physical quality they was MADE/FORCED/BRED into it by man !!

    it is what is generally accepted in genetics as breeding backwards from nature......and absolutely no other living thing is bred in this way.......breeding something to be a worse physical specimen is not only cruel but plain stupid.....the same as breeding for 1 armed children would be seen as cruel/stupid....do you not agree ?....and as i have said over and over again....what is the reason for it and how have the dogs benefitted ???....a simple question dray cannot answer and has tried to cover bullshit up with more bullshit to the point where the question can no longer be avoided so is simply being ignored !!!....some stories tell themself eh :rolleyes:
  12. Dray

    Dray Bull Terrier Moderator

    It is clear to me that you just love to argue. Fact!

    Hopefully you do not mind me copy and pasting part of your PM sent to me. "its a perfectly fair question seeing as you breed your dogs to the standards set by those before you....i wouldnt breed dogs with 2 heads out of moral prinicipal ( i know its wrong ).....so why do you breed these dogs you consider to be better than yesterdays ( physically )"

    Because that is all that i know, i have been breeding these dogs based on what i believe to be the breed standard. I have been on Judges training days, which your overall score is based on what i have learned about the breed standard and how to judge it. On my first one i got 87 out of 100 and my best score to date is 96.........In my opinion i know how to judge what todays Breed Sandard requires. That does not include the history of the BT nor does it include how the BT has changed over the years.

    In one of the posts above, where you say you have answered my questions, your answers are your opinions, none of your answers explain what detrement any changes have brought to the Bull Terrier.
    I have tried to explain some of my answers the best i can.
    However i will add to that, the only known problems with todays Bullies is their mouths, heart, kidney, patella, deafness, skin conditions and a few others that i have never witnessed.

    Out of all of the above, i am convinced that today's head profile is largely to blame, however there is many a fine breeder who with very skillful breeding, they have managed to produce a pleasing head without affecting the mouth. In todays show ring, these dogs are worth their weight in gold.

    All of the other ailments mentioned above, i'm afraid may have been around a lot longer. I have no proof one way or another.

    The extra bone that today's BT's clearly have, in my opinion has no detrement to the breed what so ever, or at least the type of dog that i see. They still lead a normal healthy robust life. Bounding through the fields, swimming across the lake, climing the peaks of Derbyshire and running for miles as and when asked. I do know that the heavier weight dogs can sometimes suffer with artheritus, later in life, but again i have no information to say that the Bullies of earlier times were any different.

    Now what else was there ?

    Oh obese dogs. No dogs should be allowed to become obese, no matter what generation they were born in.

    I shall not comment about intence physical training, as i know even less about that than i do about today's Bull Terriers.

    Please tell me that this is all you require.

    Oh and i also prefer the look and temperament of today's Bull Terriers, because, that is my choice!;)

    Now i saw a Black Bird the other day and it was White:lol:
  13. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    Mr Clueless, i am infact a sensible person & 1 who is able to have her own opinions, so please forget the "tag team" i speak as i find & make up my own mind regardless of whom i might offend.

    I am particularly struggling to answer this thread now but i shall try, this is of course only my opinion but then again that is all anyone can offer.

    YES todays BT is less agile than Yesterdays....IMO i agree with this, so is that what you need for this debate to be over??

    Do i think it a detriment?? If i were to be putting my dog in a ring with a Bull/Bear then yes i can see how less agility may well be detrimental. As this is a past time it has little significance.

    Take the St Bernard for instance, would you say it outrageous to breed such a creature ...... lets face it, their hardly agile

    At the end of the day Health, & Fitness/Agility are what sock is to shoe, they are good together but not the same thing.

    I do not wish to be rude & i am not critisising your personal life but from what i have read i believe you are some what of a health guru,train,work out, take steroids (i have no problem with any of that) but clearly to me you take your health & fitness very seriously indeed. Myself on the other hand.... and you can call me lazy if you like, i have all on working full time, keeping my home to a standard, bringing up my children, washing ironing, cooking, not to mention exercising the dog, i personally would struggle to find any time left in my day for fitness regimes & if i did i'd be too knackered.

    So after all that my opinion is this..... of course you believe in what you are saying, it is your way of life, i am not disagreeing with it..... i just think the need for such physical fitness/agility.....although you may think it nice, it is not necessary, an even balance is what is required. Actual health itself is more important.

    I feel this thread may never end :lol: nothing will ever be the same as it was 50 years ago, rightly or wrongly - FACT
  14. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    ok kingy and mr dray......

    i believe in standing up for my beliefs no different from the next man......however,i am also realistic enough to understand the old saying

    " you can lead a horse to water....but you cannot make it drink it "


    i am a believer in thinking for myself as i would encourage anybody to do.....not plainly standing in a line and following what the person before you did,thinking how they think,and having the views they have.......without first questioning if they are in fact morally correct !

    dray with his own mouth ( well fingers ) has admitted he just followed what was done before him as regards his standards and beliefs concerning bull terriers without questioning them..............does this make him wrong,no i guess not he has not done anything wrong by continuing poor breeding practises after all it wasnt his idea he was just a follower......however where does the chain stop ? where do people draw the line with things and stop blindly following what others before did.....personally i think it is a weak person who does not question if what they have been led to follow and believe is actually right........it is the wolf/sheep syndrome all over again and i guess rightly or wrongly some people are happy being a sheep.......

    now when it comes to the physical wellbeing of a breed of dog i feel things need to be questioned more......maybe you 2 dont and for that i guess thats your choice....BUT what i feel cannot be ignored is simple common sense......dray has pretended to answer my question...without really doing so....and to be honest probably like yourself this debate has run out of steam and i really cannot be bothered to keep asking a question that somebody refuses to answer ...... " the truth hurts and all that "

    if a person cannot see the physical differences between the 2 generations of essentially the same dog .....and realise through BASIC COMMON SENSE the physical limitations such breedings put on a dog ( THROUGH PEOPLES FASHION PREFERENCES AND NO OTHER REASON )......then they quite clearly only see what they want to see.....for dray i understand why as he sells puppies under the disgraceful and corrupt banner of the english kennel club......no doubt these pups are sold for upwards of 700 pound :lol:.....so you can kind of see why this type of person would only see what they wanted to see.......st bernards,chihuahuas,great danes british bulldogs.....all disgustingly bred from physical extremes for fashion purposes.....it just so happens that the bull terrier breeds are closer to my heart than those other breeds,but the pathetic and cruel breeding principals are still the same.....and are all under the banner of the show dog mentality and kennel club
    to folk such as myself and many others who have nothing to sell and so nothing to gain and is simply a person true to dogs i refuse to be brainwashed and just go along with the bullshit,in todays times this is not a popular stance to take as you can see by this thread.....but the beauty is.....i will always be able to look in the mirror and know i had no part in the backwards breeding of a once fine dog breed.....and for that i can live with myself.

    kingy as regards my hobbies or outside interests regarding physical training,please dont assume things.....my children had a fantastic upbringing and enjoy the wealth and security that i have brought them....i will say no more on the subject as i am not a flash or brash person ;).....but i do have time in my life to train,collect stamps,fly model aeroplanes or collect butterflies if i please.....i simply chose training,that has nothing to do with my outlook on dogs...my outlook on dogs comes from simple common sense and honesty.....

    ok its been an interesting debate i shall allow one of you the last word and say no more......
    all the best and take care ;)

    ps.dray...i will not post any of the private messages you sent me as i believe private messages should stay private or there is no reason to have sent them !
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2009
  15. Kingy

    Kingy Puppy

    As i am a woman i feel it should obviously be me that has the last word :lol:

    Mr Clueless i apologise if you took my post to be assuming you spent more time on your fitness than family, it really wasn't my intention & i'm sure your children have had a fine up bringing.

    I respect your above post, you are correct to stand up for your beliefs.

    I will hold my hands up & say i too see the Bull Terrier as it is today & not 50 years ago. Anybody would be foolish to argue the point there has been no change in the last 50 years - clearly there has, and as i agreed earlier they are no longer as agile as they once where.

    I still defend todays BT as it is this BT i know & love & in my eyes they are able to be active and all that comes with it.....i appreciate some aren't but that's the same with everything. There's one thing for sure we as humans are a far lazier generation today choose how we live our lives.

    I am no kennel club worshiper, i neither breed nor show, to be honest i couldn't give a monkeys about them, all i wish for in a dog is it be happy, healthy & able bodied enough to make it so.

    Thanks for your input, in 20 years time who knows how the KC will have evolved...... maybe then we will all sit back & reflect on this thread.
  16. Dray

    Dray Bull Terrier Moderator


    Make up your own mind. I did;)

    I can also look at myself in the mirror and say, i'm glad that my views are of the majority of people who Love and Respect Bull Terriers and any of the other breeds for that matter, that were formerly bred for man's sick pleasure. Known as Dog Fighting:no2: No they did not choose to do this, this was forced upon them.

    So if i am the sheep i say Baa! Baa! and goodbye:)

    No this is not aimed at anyone in particular, this is my own opinion of the type of Bull Terriers that some people strive to reproduce. While i sit at home with my companions. Thinking of how much money my next litter will make me:no2:
  17. 12 gauge

    12 gauge Puppy

    Mr. Clueless you are beating on a dead horse, show fanciers (aka hardcore standard followers) simply wont give up and wont see past a showring even if the bull terriers end up with completely deformed and unhealthy (hey isnt that why english bulldogs sell?), I've had the same problem trying to talk some sense (like you are) into people who breed staffords that look like meatballs with legs, but learnt my leason its been all in vain, you cant change stupidity glazed with stubbornness.
    I'm no expert when it comes to EBTs but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell fat from fit.
  18. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    couldnt agree more......its ok though even if it puts it in folks heads that the show brigade have destroyed dog breeds,then it gives them another angle to view dogs and dog matters....and thats ok with me.......

    some folk take years to see the light some see it immediately......as ive always said, " the truth has strange ways of proving itself ".....but it usually does eventually !

    kingy no need for apologies it all makes for interesting debate ;)

    ---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

  19. Dray

    Dray Bull Terrier Moderator

    1...dogs EVOLVED into fighting dogs through selection of the dogs that loved to do it most.....loved to do it not forced

    And i suppose these dogs were also carefully selected for there building skills, as they obviously built the pits, to where they were forced to fight to near death! or even death.. to at least one of them :no2:

    2...a totally distorted egg shaped head WAS FORCED onto dogs.....

    working dogs EVOLVED to look/perform the way they did...
    show dogs did not choose to look the way they do.....IT WAS FORCED UPON THEM[/quote]
    Your calling a Bull Terrier a working dog:confused: i presume you use the word working to describe fighting, bull bating, ratting or do you actually mean, that they once ran/hurded cattle, cattle that was a lot harder to hurd than todays bovine's;)
    The breed was forced to change due to a lack of work?
    Get over it at move on, or stay in the past with you and your own beliefs and leave me and mine to ours.
    If you can prove that my dogs are unhealthy and in need of vetinary care then call the RSPCA.
    Anyone on here who wishes to allow their dogs to pull weights, get pulled up a tree, lunge at a human beings arm or any other similar activities is all up to them.....No i do not understand your passion for this, but i do not try to make you see that it is wrong and my beliefs are right. No! not because i'm wrong, because i also know that there is no point knocking:lol:
    As long as it does not involve any form of animal cruelty, or carrying out illegal activities, then who am i to dictate! what you, or anyone else chooses to do with your own pets;)

    Now can we please just agree to disagree and talk about the weather instead:rolleyes::sonn_u11:
  20. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    dont make big sweeping statements about things you have very little knowledge or understanding of........

    i KNOW like i know monday follows sunday that you cannot force a dog to fight........
    i also KNOW like i know monday follows sunday that dogs cannot change their own head shape...it has to be selected for and bred for by man..........

    bull terriers have been FORCED to look the way they do,for no reason other than pathetic fashion..........

    THAT I KNOW....as everybody does...

    whether people choose to ignore it is up to them.....i cannot ignore stupidity....but dray from now on i will try to with you ;)
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