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ADBA/UKC/AKC/ABKC Breeds as it pertins to the APBT and Am Sraff and Am Bully

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by CelticKarma, Jul 25, 2011.

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  1. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I completely agree. The breeder of Kady's dog I LOVE HER DOGS. They are excellent examples of Am Staffs. And if I would want one I would "try" to get one from her. While they show theirs dual and that is fine. However I would not show mine if I had an Am Staff. My opinion and choice.
     
  2. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    I never argued that an AST could do what an ADBA APBT could do; that's not the point. My point/opinion is that the APBT is no different than any other breed that has a split between show and working lines (of which there are MANY such breeds).

    Most show bred Greyhounds could never do what a racing or coursing bred Greyhound can do. The same thing goes for show bred Whippets, but you don't hear fanciers of performance bred Greyhounds/Whippets claiming that their show bred cousins are a different breed or that the registry should be split or closed off.

    If you don't like one type or another, no one is forcing you to own or breed to those dogs. If someone else wants to "pollute" their bloodlines with AST blood that's their business not yours; no one is telling you to buy their dogs or breed to them. I personally would never choose to breed to a purely show bred dog, but that doesn't mean I think that choice should be taken away from others.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2011
  3. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    Sako is dual registered with UKC & AKC. I show both registries.. greatly prefer UKC though! But I don't hate AKC, it's just.. more political LOL. Sako is actually able to be registered with ADBA, but I don't think I will.

    Nice to hear :) I loved how her dogs looked from the minute I saw them all.
     
  4. bdcraft

    bdcraft Big Dog

    dogs.jpg
    i gave this dude the white bitch. she is a 100% mutt mastiff, american bulldog, and pit. he mated the two dogs and are selling the pups as american bully and he got papers for the pups and the white bitch i gave him. she was to big to be pit so he hung bully papers on her
     
  5. BethBurgess2007

    BethBurgess2007 Little Dog

    Posted by Cynthia:"Well one of the problems as well is that allowing the Am Staff to be registered as an APBT in the UKC. Then with UKC papers it can cross to the ADBA as an APBT."
    Actually ADBA has alway let AKC amstaffs with AKC papers register with them as APBTs. They always have, it is not just a UKC thing. They allow it without the dog being UKC first.



    Read more: http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthr...-APBT-and-Am-Sraff-and-Am-Bully#ixzz1TMBuobVt
     
  6. SideKick

    SideKick Little Dog


    :thankUsmiley:
     
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    And gee that makes it better? Yea lets keep crossing Am Staffs and so forth into one of the last few registries that you can find actual more true to form APBT.

    I just sent one of the Greenwoods a message on FB to verify. On the ADBA site I could not find which registries they actually accept. It just says attach the other papers to the single dog application. Along with pictures. Hopefully they would not accept a dog that clearly appears to be an Am Staff to the ADBA. But hey they are a business.
     
  8. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    = mutts.

    mutt/mət/Noun1. A dog, esp. a mongrel.

    mon·grel/ˈmäNGgrəl/Noun1. A dog of no definable type or breed.
    2. Any other animal resulting from the crossing of different breeds or types
     
  9. GoingPostal

    GoingPostal Good Dog

    It's funny, a couple years ago all the Ambully folks were up in arms claiming there was nothing but Amstaff and APBT in their dogs, it was all selective breeding and now it's flip flopped back to they are all mutts? Which I agree, they are, just like a flippin labradoodle, you got mini ones, big ones, no set look, registries that recognize them sure, you can make any mutt you want and find a registry for it. Then you have Ambullies on here that half the Ambully folks say are Amstaffs or APBT because they aren't bully enough and ADBA registered 100 pound "APBT". It happens in all breeds, I could pull out pics of just about any breed, a well bred one and a shitty bred one and they'd look nothing alike, doesn't make them a different breed. If I posted a pic of a lanky greyhound looking dane, a show quality dane and a "Euro" overdone mastiffy looking dane, they wouldn't appear to be the same breed either but they are, just depends on who's throwing dogs together. Look at border collies. Sporting, herding, show. American Bullies want to be a breed, pick a standard and breed true to it, seems like every breeder around is after their own look and they just make a class to fit it. Mixing in whatever breeds you want and having 12" smooshed face dogs to huge 130 jowly faced dogs to UKC looking dogs all the same name is idiotic.
     
  10. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    Do you think that the APBT just fell out of the sky in the exact form in which it exists now? Do you think any breed originated that way?

    I find it amusing that so many APBT fanciers believe that the APBT, particularly the gamebred variety, is some kind of pure race that just sort of formed itself from the elements of the earth and sky without any kind of intervention or evolution at the hands of man. That sort of thinking is no better than the deluded view of show ring breeders that like to spout romantic stories about the origins of their breeds and how the exaggerated features they worship and defend somehow have anything to do with that false reality.
     
  11. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Lol I never said that. Wow can we say twist words much.

    What I can say is that the APBT has been around much longer than the AKC Am Staff. And is more true to form than the Am Staff. And I am not talking about the current UKC type which is the majority is pretty much just and Am Staff. And at one time they all were the same dog. However not since 1936

    Own and love your dog. No one is saying not to. However do not call your dog a breed it is not.
     
  12. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    Here is what it boils down too for me as the owner of both....

    I call my APBT .....APBT and I register them as such and show them as such, they are my breed of choice.

    I call my American Bullies ......American Bullies and I register them as such and show them as such and show them as such. They are my husbands breed of choice.

    As stated before the AmBully has not yet arrived as a breed IMO but is getting there. I personally refuse to call them APBT is if I have UKC papers because 1 it is an insult to the APBT and 2 owning both dogs I know for a fact they are nothing alike.

    I do not ask for anyone to like the American Bully, we all have our breed of choice, it does not bother me to hear them called hippos, mutts or whatever anyone chooses, because at the end of the day I know what I feed. My husband and I have had long long talks about the AmBullies we own and what we want for our dogs and for us as owners/breeders of the AmBully and first and foremost has always been to keep the two dogs separate as a breed and regardless of what other AmBullies where doing for us to do what we felt was right by the dogs as a whole, only owning what we think is correct by OUR standards and only breeding to that standard.

    We do not breed for color or head size and never will. Do I feel the American Bully is a designer breed...You better believe it, they are very much leash candy and nothing like my APBT. With the APBT the work has been done the foundation has been laid and the standard has been establish for many many years, this is not the case with the American Bully so as owners/breeders we feel we have to be very selective in what and how we choose to represent the American Bully.

    Even though APBT and AmStaffs may have been used in the foundation stock of the AmBully, foundation is a far cry from the end result. Do I think other breeds have been mixed in along the way? Yes, I would be a fool to say no....If all that was ever mixed were APBT and Amstaff we would still only have classic AmBullies. What was mixed I have no idea and can only speculate but that alone should tell anyone that it is not an APBT. If anything we can at best call them a "Bully" breed or a "Bully" mix for those that do not agree with them being a breed.

    I refuse to miss lead the public by telling them that we have all APBT, it only adds to the confusion that already surrounds the matter. I choose to call them American Bullies nothing will ever change my mind on that, not even the UKC papers that I have that says APBT.

    ---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 AM ----------


    That is the whole point right there!
     
  13. kylieeeeeee

    kylieeeeeee Puppy

    if they were the same dog in 1936, how could one breed be older than another? or if the AKC Am Staff different to normal Am Staffs? I'm a little confused, you guys get so technical.

    if you think about it, if there's been no other breed mixed in with the original breed that both of them stemmed from, technically they're still the same breed.. sure they may look different, but do you look like everyone in your race?
    Is it possible to differentiate the two breeds through DNA testing?
     
  14. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    DNA tests are not really accurate. There are some on the market that are better than others. And no test recognizes the American Pit Bull Terrier. Their is only 1 Am Staff and it is reistered only by the AKC.

    Now a dog that you no papers on can "appear" to be a breed. But there is no way to really tell.

    The APBT has been around for way over 100 years. And some can argue that their existence has been around for over 200 years. The UKC started recognizing them in 1898. The ADBA (was up to a few years ago only an APBT Registry and considered the premier registry for the APBT) has been around Since 1909.

    In 1936 the AKC opened up their stud books and started calling it the Am Staff. And trough the years of selected breeding has evolved into it's own breed.
     
  15. kylieeeeeee

    kylieeeeeee Puppy

    thanks for the info :)
     
  16. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    I'd be curious to see what a mitochondrial DNA test would show regarding the APBT and the AST. I would bet that such a test would indicate that there is no difference between the two and that for all intents and purposes they are the same breed regardless of their purpose or appearance.

    Purebreds, by definition, are extremely homogenous genetically because in order to create a purebred you have to do a lot of linebreeding and inbreeding to fix the traits/type you want. In this way, individuals within a purebred population are going to be much more similar genetically to one another than they are to others outside their breed. Once you close off the genepool there's no way to get that diversity back, so as long as the AST was never outcrossed to any other breed, they should still be the same as the APBT on a genetic level.
     
  17. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    Well your two cents has shown just how much you know about the APBT. :lol:

    Carla after the health testing thread I was thinking maybe you had totally lost your mind. After reading this thread I'm quite sure of it :lol:
     
  18. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    I never claimed to be an expert on the APBT, or even a fancier of the APBT. I'm just a person that admires the breed and enjoys working with an APBT that I co-own with a friend.

    Regardless, I would never put any breed of dog on the kind of pedestal some of you guys do, because at the end of the day it's just a dog, and, like humans, there is more similarity between races than there is difference. Dogs are not supernatural beings and they're not the 8th wonder of the world.

    I love my dogs, and I love the breeds I choose to spend my life with. I am dedicated to promoting the best interests of my dogs and their respective breeds, but I don't delude myself into thinking they are more than what they are, and I don't waste my time being offended by petty lines some people like to draw within the fancy, or by semantics.
     
  19. DutchGame

    DutchGame Little Dog

    ^^^^ This.
     
  20. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    You just answered your own question. LOL

    Love of a breed is not unique to just APBT. Ask any fancier/handler/person who works their dog. They have the same pasion for the breed they own/show/work. It is a completely different passion than just the average pet owner.

    My day starts at 6am letting dogs out and taking care of them. I then go to work and do not get home till around 7pm. I then go and again take care of dogs till around 9pm.

    I see it alot at work. We have a client who is breeds/works/shows Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. She is very passionate as well about her dogs and what she does with them. She feels as though they are the greatest breed. She drove from FL to Wasington State for a field trial with her dogs.

    So you see it is not unique to just APBT fanciers. And I would not expect the average pet owner to understand.

    As far as drawing lines. LMAO really? Either you are completely ignorant to the differences or you refuse to acknowledge them. But hey I would not want a real APBT in the hands of people like you who seem not to know or understand or even accept the difference between and Am Staff and an APBT.
     
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