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ADBA/UKC/AKC/ABKC Breeds as it pertins to the APBT and Am Sraff and Am Bully

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by CelticKarma, Jul 25, 2011.

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  1. CrazyK9

    CrazyK9 Good Dog

    No the people that have disrespect for the APBT are the ones breeding these faulty dogs! I believe the APBT is supposed to be built according the ADBA/AADR standards. There can be decent looking dogs in the UKC too but I think they are too heavily influenced by AKC AmStaffs.
  2. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    carla's logic would hold up if it wasn't for the pesky detail of the fact that even Dave Wilson admitted that although they started out as Am Staff x ABPT (which some argue are now separate breeds and others argue are different types of the same breed), but that everything from molossers to Pugs were added into the breed mix to create the types people wanted quickly. This means that A) people are hanging papers and there really isn't anything the UKC can do to prove it short of DNA testing parents and pups and B) if you consider the Am Bully a mutt or a very new breed you are right.
  3. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    How do you figure, if they breed them and call them American Bullies then it has no effect on the APBT none whatsoever. I agree the APBT should be bred to ADBA standards but we are not talking about the APBT we are talking about the American Bully who is nothing like an APBT. I know for a fact they are nothing a like and I did say FACT!!!!
  4. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    That is just it....I have no problem with people calling the American Bully a mutt and I have no problem with people calling it a new breed, I do however have a huge problem with people calling it an APBT.
  5. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Really? So an UKC APBT and a Am Staff can breed and it is a UKC APBT.

    That was the MAJOR problem before the UKC closed their books. The cross over of the AKC Am Staff. It was registered UKC then it polluted the ADBA gene pool.

    The problem lies with all the cross registering. The majority of UKC APBTs is different from the ADBA APBT. And the UKC is heavily influenced by the AKC Am Staff and that is a shame.
  6. CrazyK9

    CrazyK9 Good Dog

    I agree with you Cynthia. That is a shame. There should be a clear line between APBT and AST and there sadly is not.Celtic, you know damn well the majority of people breeding AmBullies are calling their dogs pit bulls still. And how can you say there is a clear line between APBT and bullies? Look at how many so-called classics and standards out there that are purely from UKC lines. They are APBTs, by blood and by registry. It just happens that their breeders have been breeding for exaggerated features.
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I agree with you there. I got in a debate with some members when I said RE started in the UKC as UKC Style APBTs. Gaff did not start out as an Am Bully line either. Watchdog either. But now they are in ALOT of Am Bully dog's peds.
  8. thanks cynthia!

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

    def no butchered job exactly what i llike and wanted for this dog my 8 yr old amstaff was don't by same person and it looks more to what u would consider good....like ur avatar im not fond of his cut at all ....but i wouldn't butcher the vet smh.....

    ---------- Post added at 01:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 AM ----------

    "nothing alike" i just cant agree w that...

    ---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

    so ur saying that because its neither apbt or amstaff = ambully?

    i highly disparage: i think a more legitimate name should pit-staff. but we all know the staff derived from the apbt. i think its trully wrong automatically call a bully....idk
    classic ambullies remind me of amstaf or thicker apbt.

    ive sen some worked bulls w ambully ped that looked adba standard...
  9. DMKnapp

    DMKnapp Puppy

    Did I really join this forum so I could go through the same threads every week or so? All I find our groups of people who piggy back off each others statements in regards to threads. Maybe cause I can be a sucker sometimes. At least NGK is on this board so I can learn something once in awhile.
  10. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    I agree there are way too many AmBully breeders still calling their dogs APBT but a lot of that is changing as it should. I do not agree with American Bullies being called APBT at all....

    Of course you are going to have American Bullies that still have UKC so called bloodlines because some of these dogs were used in the foundation of the creation of the American Bully but over time as the breed is evolving there should be less and less in the peds. Like I said before it should be way back in the peds not front and center like I am seeing in this ped....Just because a breed was used in the foundation does not mean that the final product is a UKC APBT or Staffy. No more then an APBT is a fox terrier or other type that was used in it's creation.

    Do I think that the American Bully has arrived and come into it's own? Not quit yet but it is getting there and calling them what they are is a good start.

    I own both breeds so I know the different first hand, I live with both breeds everyday not only are they different in looks they are way different in temperament and drive, one of the main goals in the creation of the American Bully was to breed out DA and I have to say they did a good job of it. I own three standards and a classic and they have zero DA.

    A registry is in it for the money and the biggest problem and reason why so many AmBully owners still call their dogs APBT is because the UKC at one point and still does register them as such. Think about it ....Why should they get rid of them? American Bully owners breed at alarming rates can you imagine how much money the UKC is making off of litter registries alone... I honestly feel if they are not willing to let the money go at least acknowledge they are their own breed and start registering them as such.

    ---------- Post added at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

    LMBO.....Welcome to form life....there are many options we have a nice block feature....
  11. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Yes, that was UKC's policy for a long time. You can't change the history that THEY called those dogs APBTs.*

    The ADBA gene pool is still pretty free of Am Stafs, isn't it? There, a ped with Am Staf is pretty easy to stay away from. There are SOME very famous game dogs that go back to a few Tacoma Stafs, but that was a long time ago, closer to 1936 when the dogs were more alike; and where I've seen it discussed, it's not a big deal because the Am Stafs were essentially still APBTs then..

    THis is true. But, it doesn't change the FACT, the HISTORY of the unique registration that went on in UKC per Am Stafs...those are UKC-registered APBTs -- easy enough to stay away from if you don't like what UKC did. I think it is UNDERSTANDABLE what they did, starting back in 1936, when the dogs were the same! When should they have stopped? Easy to determine when you get to look back in time and history...

    As for ADBA dogs -- there are a lot of them I really like! But, as with any registry that drafts a standard of appearance and gets into conformation-showing, exaggerations pop up...in ADBA's case, I see more of the too fine, whippety-looking dogs *-- they went the OTHER way from what most breeds do which go the more BONE, more SUBSTANCE, bigger HEAD direction!


    ---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

    Are all the Gaff dogs now "Am Bullies"? Or does Gaff still get to register dogs as Am Stafs if they are, indeed AKC Am Stafs? Or is it that once a certain pedigree gets used to breed bullies it is NO LONGER an Am Staf (or Pit Bull)?

    It really does sound like that is what you are all trying to say!
  12. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    The pedestal that some of you put the APBT on is a little ridiculous, IMO. I'm involved with a lot of different breeds that also have splits between show and working lines, but I've never encountered this level of separatism before (i.e. thinking that two varieties of the same breed should be split into two different breeds).

    Just my two cents.
  13. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Well the Am Staff and the APBT are infact 2 very separate breeds. And to be honest the UKC APBT is for the majority a very different breed than the ADBA APBT. One the reasons is the UKC is heavily invaded with the AM Staff.

    Once you separate and breed for decades for a different purpose then it is not the same breed.

    Yes we hold the APBT on a pedestal because it was in fact was the original. Before the registries separated it and breed it for a different purpose and looks.

    And no the ADBA gene pool is polluted still by UKC dogs. Which have for generations been crossed with the Am Staff. Also while technically on paper yes it is an UKC APBT. But that does nor always mean it is. Just like many Am Bullies are registered as APBT and gasp even Am Staff. However does not make them either. You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.

    My dog Mike was a registered APBT with both the UKC and the ADBA. However he was 1/4 Am Staff and 3/4 APBT.

    I do like some Am Bullies. Celtics are one and pink has some nice ones too.
  14. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    Many, many breeds have multiple registries that have been breeding for different purposes/appearance for many generations; the APBT is not unique in this respect and yet many APBT fanciers on this board seem to think it is unique to this breed.

    I don't see any difference between what's going on with the APBT/AST/Ambully and what has happened with other split breeds like Greyhounds, Foxhounds, Border Collies, JRTs or Setters/pointers.

    IMO the continued hair-splitting between variations of the same breed into separate breed registries can only serve as a detriment to all dogs because the more you close off the genepool the more likely you are to breed yourself into a genetic bottleneck.
  15. pampam22

    pampam22 Good Dog

    Were other breeds included? Would you call a lab crossed with a poodle a non-working lab?
  16. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    I agree with your opinion Cynthia (about not crossing into UKC with AmStaffs) but until there is a less... shitty registry to show your AmStaffs in it isn't a practice that will stop any time soon I am positive. If you go to a UKC show and ask people with dual-reg'd dogs I bet half of them will say they hate AKC. If I had a dual-reg'd AmStaff and there was a decent AmStaff registry I would flush my UKC papers down the toilet. I doubt I will be getting a AmStaff and I might not show it if I did, sure as hell won't show AKC and while I hold no grudge against people who do, I *would* feel a little uneasy parading my AmStaff under a false breed name. I especially hate it when people cross AmStaffs into the ADBA and I sincerely hope that the ADBA doesn't go the way of UKC any time soon. I like AmStaffs but they are not my breed of choice and I think that if you don't want to go AKC, AmStaffs are warmly welcomed in the UKC so stay out of true APBT registries.
  17. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I could care less about other breeds to be honest. Variations of the same breed? After generations of breeding for a different purpose and look it is not the same breed or even a variation of the same breed. Sorry.
  18. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    Lol. You go your ass to Thailand, ask Johnny Lai if he thinks some AmStaff could do what his gamedogs could do. Do it, I bet you he will laugh you off his yard. Yes I think the gene pools between APBT and AST should be closed off. You might get some genetic diversity into your APBT by breeding it with an AST but you'd have a HELL of a time breeding the gameness back into it!!
  19. Stouthearted

    Stouthearted Puppy

    As I understand things, the AST was never outcrossed to any other breeds. I can't say the same for the Ambullies, the story seems to constantly be changing, but my understanding was that the original RE bloodlines were not outcrossed either.

    Regardless, outcrossing does not a different breed make - at least not in every situation. There have been two documented cases of purposeful outcrossing in the Dalmatian and Boxer breeds in order to get rid of the high uric acid gene and to introduce the bobtail gene, respectively. The outcrossed bloodlines have since been bred exclusively back to purebred Boxer/Dalmatian and the descendants are no less purebred than their non-outcrossed cohorts.
  20. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I completely agree. The breeder of Kady's dog I LOVE HER DOGS. They are excellent examples of Am Staffs. And if I would want one I would "try" to get one from her. While they show theirs dual and that is fine. However I would not show mine if I had an Am Staff. My opinion and choice.
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