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A little breed history, please.

Discussion in 'American Staffordshire Terrier' started by MachoBully, May 15, 2012.

  1. MachoBully

    MachoBully Puppy

    Yesterday I was talking to this guy I know and he swore that a Staffordshire was "the best fighting dog alive". I do not condone dog fighting, and neither does he but we were speaking about history and what the dog was created for, just want to add that in there. I am not informed on the breed at all, so I just listened to him. He continued to tell me that a Staffordshire was made from breeding an OEB and a EBT, i raised both eyebrows at this, still not saying a word because i'm uneducated on this subject. After looking and reading last night I think its safe to say you cant really pin down what dogs were used to create this breed. It all sums down to the old type bull dogs and a terrier. Bull and Terrier, nothing more specific. Is this right? Can anyone help me out with this?
     
  2. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

  3. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Up to 1936, the history of the AST is the same as the APBT, because they were the same dog.

    You can look in the Am Staf history section too.

    The Am Staf is a cross of, as you say, the old original working bulldogs and various working terriers -- same as the APBT.
     
  4. MachoBully

    MachoBully Puppy

    which is pretty much the same thing as the EBT, old working bulldogs and terriers. Interesting!

    Thank you both for that.

    I'll take a look at that link!
     
  5. brindlexpitt

    brindlexpitt Derpidoo


    amstaff is just the product of extreme show selection of APBT, causing them to look/normally act completely different. bred for so many years as such, that most prefer to call them "cousins".
     
  6. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Yes, the EBT started out as a bull and terrier, BUT Hinks added in Dalmation and some say Pointer.
    It really does not deserve THE name "BULL TERRIER" -- it is the LEAST bull and terrier of the bull terriers.

    Shoulda been called the HINKS TERRIER! But Hinks believed he was "perfecting" the old, rough bull and terriers, so his breed got that name!

    A travesty!


    Carla
     
  7. MachoBully

    MachoBully Puppy

    I believe it was once called "The Hinks Breed".

    He strayed from what the dog could do, to what the dog should look like. *Shrug*

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

    Some also say, greyhound, fox hound, whippet, and even collie were mixed in there.
     
  8. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Yeah, I've heard that too.
    A book you will love if you don't have it already is "Full Circle-A History of the Colored Bull Terrier" by David O. Harris. I think you can get it directly from the author.

    Carla
     
  9. MachoBully

    MachoBully Puppy

    ^ I will surely look into that, havent read it! Thank you much :)
     
  10. maxamvs

    maxamvs Puppy

    seams i remember reading somewhere that the staffie was bread as a small game dog,as well as a nurse for the gamekeepers children...
     
  11. Gatorpit

    Gatorpit Good Dog

    nope. The staffybull (staffordshire bull terrier) is pretty much the progenitor of the APBT and Amstaff. Bred for one purpose and one purpose alone: pit fighting. Were they used in other areas? Certainly. But it was not the purpose and intent of their creation. Kinda like how German shepherds are now used as police dogs and home guardians but their original purpose for creation was as a herder of sheep.

    The APBT is the Americanized version of the staffybull. They came over from European countries mainly during the Irish potato famine, and have continued their development as pit fighters in the US. They began to develop physically differently than their european cousins, but were still bred solely for the sport of pit fighting. Again...some were used for other purposes as well, but pit fighting was still the raison d'etre for the breed.

    In 1936 some American Pit Bull Terrier breeders wanted their dogs to be recognized by the AKC so that they could compete in conformation shows. The AKC agreed to recognize the breed, but only if they changed the name to tone down the fighting history by removing the word "pit".

    It was going to be called the American bull terrier, but the bull terrier people didn't like that at all, as they felt it was infringing on their breed's name, so the APBT people settled on the name American Staffordshire terrier.

    The Amstaff's history (as was said) IS the pit bull's history, as they were the same breed up until 1936 when they were officially recognized by the AKC.

    Even now, there is tons of debate about breed separation, as many Amstaffs are dual registered with the ADBA or UKC as APBTs.
     
  12. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Yes, I'm gonna mess with ya, Gator! I think it's more accurate to say that "the bull and terrier dogs which went to North America were the progenitors of the ABPT and Am Staf; the bull and terriers which remained in the British Isles became the SBT (in 1935)".
    Again, not exactly. The APBT is the Americanized version of the old imported bull and terriers. The bull and terriers which remained in the homeland became the SBT.What's important and interesting is that the bull and terriers developed into a generally larger specimen here in USA. Reasons for this could have been simply what people LIKED, the fact they were often used for jobs which favored a larger dog, and maybe partly because people could just afford a bigger dog.I like to make it clear because people get confused about when there were BREEDS -- which are a fairly recent phenomenon! Carla
     
  13. Gatorpit

    Gatorpit Good Dog

    You can mess with me. If anyone REALLY understands the history of the amstaff, it's you. lol
     
  14. maxamvs

    maxamvs Puppy

    so was i right,sage?
    (i had to ask because this makes my 50th post and i can now enter my dog in the picture contests...and thats what its all about...lol)
    but i used to have a mag called "bully-breeds" i got at "pet-stupid" and swear they said the american staffie was originaly for small game hunting and taking care of the game wardens children....also they were used for small pack pulling...im talking waaaaay back in the days of knights and kings...i need to find another copy so i dont sound like a compleat loon...Athena is my 1st staffie (EXCELENT DOG!!)...i was born into a house where we bread and trained dobermans,shepards and bassets...Staffies are by far the most train loving dog i have ever delt with...
     
  15. here is my take on it. the pitbull already existed in the British isles(of course). the dogs brought over to the USA mid 1850's and on were the game dogs from isles. my thing is that the dogs that made it here were from the purest bulldog/terrier crosses having more bulldog blood in them than terrier. thats the reason why our APBT's look the way they do. the ones that were bred to be bigger eventually made the American Bulldogs with additional crosses and the Amstaff as it was bred away from working sporting purposes. a strain of bulldog/terrier blood remained in the isles that was still used for sport. these dogs were their pitbulls(the irish game staff) leading to up to the phyco lines and the dublin reds of the 1950's. they are long gone but those irish game dogs were the only ones that looked physically similar to the APBT's except for certain physical characteristics. i believe those to have slight more terrier blood in them due to the way they looked as far as height and compactness. from their game lines came the regular staffordshires that were for show. the game staff of the isles are long gone though, but that was their pitbull. the staff of today is made on show lines. the ukc pitbull of today are made on show lines(basically amstaffs). the adba is built on game lines built on the purest bulldog strain to have ever left the isles. notice I say game lines as im not saying game dogs which is something totally different. the progenitor of all this mess is the bulldog/terrier cross that made the APBT which was used to create the irish game dogs, the Irish staff and the Amstaff and even the EBT. this is my take on it. the blood that is in the descendants from game lines are the creators of all the breeds being mentioned.


    history is history and without the past we will never know the future.


    ---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------

    http://new-era-staff.com/bftp.htm here are some old pictures and staff info and a bit of APBT history as well.
     
  16. Gatorpit

    Gatorpit Good Dog

    No, she's just arguing my assertion that APBT's are the Americanized version of the SBT.

    What she's saying is that the SBT and the APBT developed at the same time but along slightly different lines, instead of my over simplified explanation that the APBT is a descendant of the SBT.

    None of these dogs were ever bred for any other purpose than pit fighting.
    A lot of these "pro bully" sources are intentionally muddying the waters on breed history in an attempt to distance the breeds from their fighting history. Their hearts are int he right place...they are trying to make our breeds more "politically correct" as it were, but they do them a great disservice by clouding over their fighting history, as folks who don't do their research get the idea that they are just like every other dog, and fail to take the necessary precautions to responsibly own these dogs.

    Basically, what these publications and sources do is report the uses of the breeds that were utilized to create the breeds we know today. Some of the terriers and mollasser/bull baiting ancestors of our breeds were used as these publications say.

    As an example, the modern English bulldog was NEVER used as a bull baiter/catcher. Never. Yet his popular history claims that he was. HE wasn't. The EB is an amalgamation of true bulldog breeds and the pug, created solely for looks...but SOME of the breeds used to create him were used for bull baiting.

    Niether the APBT nor the SBT were created or bred to be game hunters (or any other claims these publications make). They are frequently used for that now, but it was not the intent of their creation. However, the breeds used to create them were used as bull dogs and vermin catchers respectively, and the mollassers that came before the bull baiters were used as guardians, war dogs, and yes, on occasion pack dogs.

    The modern bully breeds are no more the ancient rat catchers, bull baiters, or pack carriers than the modern English bulldog is the bull baiter of centuries ago.
     
  17. i dont know if you know this but the bulldog we know of had many different breeds of dogs involved in the creation of it that made the APBT that made the irish game staff, the regular show irish staff and the amstaff and even the EBT. the old bulldog blood also had racing greyhound/whippet blood in it. here is an interesting read that makes for the reason of why some of the pure bred APBT's have a very streamed lined flow in there physiques and others have a very bulldog appearance like Mayday rom http://whippethistory.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/dogbreeds3/. i say this becasue it would only be right to say that just as lord orford influenced the greyhound blood with bulldog blood to get stronger bones and more gameness to chase, a pitbull fighter of the 1800's also did the same influenceing the old irish bulldog/terrier crosses with greyhound/whippet blood to add stamina and wind. although the books dont state this i fell it is accurate to say this as many dogs were used to get the perfect game dog that the men of the 1850'to 1900's so desired.

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

    [​IMG][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]Dancing Spray, a white-and-brindle bitch, 20 pounds, half bullterrier and half whippet. An interesting picture[/FONT]


    it resembles some of the pure bred APBT's if you ask me. its just a bit smaller. and the blood was not yet touched up and bred further away from the whippet cross to increase the bulldog blood. 2-3 more generations and the back wouldnt have had a whippet appearance and the bulldog would have came out. this would have been bred into the pitbull genes if it displayed the features of which the dogmen of those times felt was worthy to breed on.

     

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