[PNWPBR]

What are your thoughts? I know im probably opening a can of worms with this question.... but im curious to see what people think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19463307/



I do think that a mandatory spay/neuter is a good thing. Sorry to those of you that breed, but its how I feel. Pet overpopulation is surging and people refuse to take responsibility for the lives they are creating and so others have to step up and euthanize. Its a cycle that needs to be stopped.

My county has been working on something similar that im helping with and while I dont know all the specifics and loopholes of the CA bill what we are looking to do is this:


For Clark County, WA all animals that come in as strays by animal control cannot leave the facility without being spayed or neutered. As it is if you are an owner who lost their pet and you come to pick it up, you have to pay a penalty as well as pay to register it with Clark County. The spay/neuter would be in addition to that as they do have a surgical ward on site.

Now a lot may argue that people will redeem their pets instead of paying the extra money to spay or neuter, and while that may be true, its better off that the animal is redeemed IMO and put up for adoption (spayed or neutered of course) than to go back to an owner that cannot or will not afford the extra surgery.

NOW for the people that breed, show, ect. We are looking at ways to write in where you must obtain a Breeder Licence with AC. Since the Spay/Neuter will be for all breeds, as will the Breeder Licence. Breeders or people that show will be able to keep their animal intact for a nominal fee that must be renewed annualy.

Now I know an arguement is how hard this would be enforcable and while I do see the issues with it, bottom line is that it will come down to if and when the animal is found as a stray or if and when AC comes to your residence for a complaint.

Yes, many will fall through the cracks, but that is something that we have not completely worked out yet.

Bottom line, in the long run, thousands of lives will be saved by never being born in the first place and I for one, would love to stop cleaning up irresponsible people's messes.

Or at least less of them.

[buddysmom]

I agree, 100 percent.

Hey I think maybe we do need a debates section on pitbull-chat

i think any dog that is picked up running loose, or rescued should have a mandatory spay/neuter. why punish the entire population for the work of a other irresponsible people.

i'll never forget sitting in school and the teacher saying......"now the whole class is gonna sit here till somebody admits this or somebody tell me who did it" punish everybody to get what you want is just wrong IMO

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by Boogieman i think any dog that is picked up running loose, or rescued should have a mandatory spay/neuter. why punish the entire population for the work of a other irresponsible people. i'll never forget sitting in school and the teacher saying......"now the whole class is gonna sit here till somebody admits this or somebody tell me who did it" punish everybody to get what you want is just wrong IMO

Ok then what about the irresponsible BYB that maybe dont let their pets stray, but they are still responsible for litter upon litter upon litter every year?

[buddysmom]

To answer Boogieman the S/N rule for dogs that are picked up/adopted are already in place at least with every rescue and A/C I know of.

It's not enough.

Now the classroom analogy ... yes it sucked because or the bad kids, we had to sit there and be bored rather than learning ... (Pontiac Michigan public schools ... I know just what you mean)

But we were trying to ge an education (a noble and positive thing) ... versus being allowed to breed litters of pups at our whim (a selfish and almost always negative thing IMO)

I would say the IMO is the key point of that last sentence

Originally Posted by buddysmom To answer Boogieman the S/N rule for dogs that are picked up/adopted are already in place at least with every rescue and A/C I know of. It's not enough. Now the classroom analogy ... yes it sucked because or the bad kids, we had to sit there and be bored rather than learning ... (Pontiac Michigan public schools ... I know just what you mean) But we were trying to ge an education (a noble and positive thing) ... versus being allowed to breed litters of pups at our whim (a selfish and almost always negative thing IMO) I would say the IMO is the key point of that last sentence

you are absolutely correct about the last sentence......lmao

i just feel that NOBODY has the right to dictate what we do in our private lives or with our property.....yeah i said it. dogs are property! i work my ass off to keep healthy, happy, loveable dogs and if want to breed a litter to hell with the govt telling me i can't. (once again it's one of those opinion things)

pnwpbr, i totally agree with you in the fact that byb are scum and are really in it for just money and don't give a rats ass about the dogs. BUT.......and you knew that was coming right.........as i stated, to take away rights of others just because there are some irresponsible people in the world is just wrong.

drunk drivers kill people every year. you don't see a mandatory ban on alcohol or cars.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by Boogieman you are absolutely correct about the last sentence......lmao i just feel that NOBODY has the right to dictate what we do in our private lives or with our property.....yeah i said it. dogs are property! i work my ass off to keep healthy, happy, loveable dogs and if want to breed a litter to hell with the govt telling me i can't. (once again it's one of those opinion things) pnwpbr, i totally agree with you in the fact that byb are scum and are really in it for just money and don't give a rats ass about the dogs. BUT.......and you knew that was coming right.........as i stated, to take away rights of others just because there are some irresponsible people in the world is just wrong. drunk drivers kill people every year. you don't see a mandatory ban on alcohol or cars.

But see, you are missing where I said that you CAN breed.... you just have to register and pay extra. IMO breeders should be willing to pay that extra if they are good and reputable ones because they should understand what the BYB's are doing to the population.

Whats sad is that it has come to this..... are you saying the goverment (local or whatever) shouldnt step in and say "Stop the killing?! Stop the breeding!"


If that is the case, what do you propose they do instead to control the now almost 15 MILLION animals euthed every year for lack of homes? Im totally open to ideas and suggestions.

Originally Posted by PNWPBR But see, you are missing where I said that you CAN breed.... you just have to register and pay extra. IMO breeders should be willing to pay that extra if they are good and reputable ones because they should understand what the BYB's are doing to the population. Whats sad is that it has come to this..... are you saying the goverment (local or whatever) shouldnt step in and say "Stop the killing?! Stop the breeding!" If that is the case, what do you propose they do instead to control the now almost 15 MILLION animals euthed every year for lack of homes? Im totally open to ideas and suggestions.

in my opinion mandatory spay/neuter is just a prelude to bsl. it's geared toward extincting the breed from your town/area. also, hell no i don't feel i should have to "pay extra" for other morons mistakes. there was an excellent thread about his on another forum and i will try to dig it up if i can. it has a model to hold owners responsible for their dogs. there was tons of great info in it. i don't want to try to quote it as i don't want to misquote.

let's not kid ourselves, mandatory spay/neuter is about like outlawing guns IMO. take away the rights and the only people breeding will be the byb in even bigger numbers as now it's harder to acquire a good dog from a reputable source.

look i commend you for the excellent work you do in rescue. also, i would ask you to continue in your efforts and i will even try to donate something to you every now and then to help........BUT PLEASE try to understand it from the other point of view. i believe your attitude is jaded by the ongoing things you have to deal with in the business you are in. there are TONS of responsible owners who are in it for nothing but the dogs. any good reputable breeder doesn't make a dime off raising dogs. they do it for the passion of it. not to plop out 20 litters a year. punish those people?????? not in my book!

if i find the link from game-dog i will post it for you. i am trying to prepare for a dog show that i am leaving for n the morning, so i don't know if i will get it up this weekend or not, but will do my best to find it. i'm sure this is gonna be one of those things that we have to agree to disagree on, but like i said, i really respect what you do and i have the same feelings for anybody in your shoes. please try to do the same for me!

[buddysmom]

I don't see "mandatory spueter" as a step toward BSL or like banning guns. In fact the opposite on both counts.

BSL ... I think it will help prevent because there will be fewer unwanted / unaltered dogs "out there" to cause trouble / fear / and/or misguided sympathy (all of which lead to BSL support)

As far as the banning guns analogy I think the mandatory spay / nueter (if done correctly) can actually lend legitimacy to responsible breeding, just like having SOME gun laws lends legitimacy to responsible licensed (!) gun ownership.

If you own a gun do you oobject to having it licensed, following the state abnd federal regulations for owning said gun, putting safety locks on it, and what not? No I didn't think so.

ALSO: Responsible DOG breeding includes participation in rescue on some level wouldn't you agree? So why the opposition to pony up a fee that will help toward rescue etc. if you are going to breed?

In sheer numbers breeders contribute to the problem. So let them contribute a bit to the solution as well.

Originally Posted by buddysmom I don't see "mandatory spueter" as a step toward BSL or like banning guns. In fact the opposite on both counts. BSL ... I think it will help prevent because there will be fewer unwanted / unaltered dogs "out there" to cause trouble / fear / and/or misguided sympathy (all of which lead to BSL support) As far as the banning guns analogy I think the mandatory spay / nueter (if done correctly) can actually lend legitimacy to responsible breeding, just like having SOME gun laws lends legitimacy to responsible licensed (!) gun ownership. If you own a gun do you oobject to having it licensed, following the state abnd federal regulations for owning said gun, putting safety locks on it, and what not? No I didn't think so. ALSO: Responsible DOG breeding includes participation in rescue on some level wouldn't you agree? So why the opposition to pony up a fee that will help toward rescue etc. if you are going to breed? In sheer numbers breeders contribute to the problem. So let them contribute a bit to the solution as well.

well all i can say is i totally disagree with everything you just wrote.

you assume way too many things instead of presenting facts. like your assumptions on me owning guns and safety locks and saying "no i didn't think so" wtf??? don't even give somebody a chance to answer and you do it for me??? you come to my house to break in and i assure you the only lock is on the door and if you come through it the gun goes off. PERIOD.

also, no i wouldn't agree that responsible dog breeding includes participating in rescue. you give the govt waaaaaaay too much credit to think if they collected a fee that it would go to rescue. duh....it's gonna go to bureaucratic bullshit as most all tax dollars do. who said fees would go to rescues? nobody except you that i know of. keep your head in the sand all you want as far as mandatory spay/neuter not being a prelude to bsl if you want. i'll keep my views also. thanks for your input to the forum as always though even though we don't agree.

also like i said....IMO mandatory spay/neuter will cause the byb to breed that much more. just won't be able to advertise them in the local papers anymore.

[buddysmom]

Sometimes you need to calm the hell down, Boogieman.

In the gun analogy I am using "you" as a general applied to all gun owners ... and my contention is the vast majority do NOT object to safety locks, following safety laws etc.

... so you're not one of them? Screw the gun laws? Sorry I assumed you were sane and responsile like the vast majority of gun owners.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by Boogieman well all i can say is i totally disagree with everything you just wrote. you assume way too many things instead of presenting facts. like your assumptions on me owning guns and safety locks and saying "no i didn't think so" wtf??? don't even give somebody a chance to answer and you do it for me??? you come to my house to break in and i assure you the only lock is on the door and if you come through it the gun goes off. PERIOD. also, no i wouldn't agree that responsible dog breeding includes participating in rescue. you give the govt waaaaaaay too much credit to think if they collected a fee that it would go to rescue. duh....it's gonna go to bureaucratic bullshit as most all tax dollars do. who said fees would go to rescues? nobody except you that i know of. keep your head in the sand all you want as far as mandatory spay/neuter not being a prelude to bsl if you want. i'll keep my views also. thanks for your input to the forum as always though even though we don't agree. also like i said....IMO mandatory spay/neuter will cause the byb to breed that much more. just won't be able to advertise them in the local papers anymore.

See and I agree with a LOT of what she just said.

Example:

I don't see "mandatory spueter" as a step toward BSL or like banning guns. In fact the opposite on both counts.

The mandatory spay/neuter is NOT Breed Specific... it will be all cats and dogs, all breeds so in no way is it BSL. Again, like I said, it will still allow people to breed, responsibly.

As far as the banning guns analogy I think the mandatory spay / nueter (if done correctly) can actually lend legitimacy to responsible breeding, just like having SOME gun laws lends legitimacy to responsible licensed (!) gun ownership.

I agree with this point as well. Legitimate and good breeders will still breed, as they should..... and it will prove that much more that they aren't breeding for profit, but for the breed.

ALSO: Responsible DOG breeding includes participation in rescue on some level wouldn't you agree? So why the opposition to pony up a fee that will help toward rescue etc. if you are going to breed?

THIS statement is very important to me. I am not anti-breeder and I have quite a few friends who breed..... my association with them and my respect for them is not only because they breed responsibly, but that they give BACK to the community and lend a hand in rescuing the breed that they are producing. I think that all breeders should take back their own stock and help out where they can with rescue because a responsible breeder LOVES the breed that they are involved in and they should give back and help it in any way they can.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by Boogieman in my opinion mandatory spay/neuter is just a prelude to bsl. it's geared toward extincting the breed from your town/area. also, hell no i don't feel i should have to "pay extra" for other morons mistakes. there was an excellent thread about his on another forum and i will try to dig it up if i can. it has a model to hold owners responsible for their dogs. there was tons of great info in it. i don't want to try to quote it as i don't want to misquote. let's not kid ourselves, mandatory spay/neuter is about like outlawing guns IMO. take away the rights and the only people breeding will be the byb in even bigger numbers as now it's harder to acquire a good dog from a reputable source. look i commend you for the excellent work you do in rescue. also, i would ask you to continue in your efforts and i will even try to donate something to you every now and then to help........BUT PLEASE try to understand it from the other point of view. i believe your attitude is jaded by the ongoing things you have to deal with in the business you are in. there are TONS of responsible owners who are in it for nothing but the dogs. any good reputable breeder doesn't make a dime off raising dogs. they do it for the passion of it. not to plop out 20 litters a year. punish those people?????? not in my book! if i find the link from game-dog i will post it for you. i am trying to prepare for a dog show that i am leaving for n the morning, so i don't know if i will get it up this weekend or not, but will do my best to find it. i'm sure this is gonna be one of those things that we have to agree to disagree on, but like i said, i really respect what you do and i have the same feelings for anybody in your shoes. please try to do the same for me!

and I appreciate what you are saying and I do see your side, and yes im a bit jaded possibly but I would like you to put yourself in MY shoes for ONE day and then tell me what your proposal is. I want you to spend 8 hours in an euth room with nothing but Pit Bull after Pit Bull, then a solid three hour block of just kittens, and you tell me that you don't think something should be done.

If you dont think the spay/neuter is the answer, then work with me and come up with something that IS.

[CynthiaATL]

I agree with Boogie on this one. It is the beginning to BSL.

Because those irresponsible BYB are not going to register to begin with for the most part anyway. Shoot it is hard enough getting owners to vaccinate on a regular.

And does the city have the manpower to enforce it. Not everyone takes their dog to the Vet. (painfully obvious today at work when a parvo pup lost its life because the owner did not know pups needed vaccines)

But I do agree that any animal being adopted through AC, Humane society, or rescue should be S/N.

[buddysmom]

Originally Posted by CynthiaATL But I do agree that any animal being adopted through AC, Humane society, or rescue should be S/N.

I respect your opinion very much, but aren't these regs alreay in place everywhere? And still there is a huge problem ... so if it's not the mandatory S/N do you have another idea?

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by CynthiaATL I agree with Boogie on this one. It is the beginning to BSL. Because those irresponsible BYB are not going to register to begin with for the most part anyway. Shoot it is hard enough getting owners to vaccinate on a regular. But I do agree that any animal being adopted through AC, Humane society, or rescue should be S/N.

But thats the thing, the animals are and we are still not making a dent in the population.... it in fact, is getting worse.




So again, im asking..... if you guys dont think this is the answer (and also again, I will remind you this is NOT BSL because it is ALL breeds)...... then what is? People complain about things but they dont come up with a better solution and that is what im asking you guys to do.

I tell my husband that all the time. lol He bitches about the way I do something, and I tell him "Well then, come up with a better way instead of just complaining!"


I mean that in the nicest way.... but seriously guys.... something has to be done and if this isnt the way, what is?

[CynthiaATL]

Originally Posted by PNWPBR But thats the thing, the animals are and we are still not making a dent in the population.... it in fact, is getting worse. So again, im asking..... if you guys dont think this is the answer (and also again, I will remind you this is NOT BSL because it is ALL breeds)...... then what is? People complain about things but they dont come up with a better solution and that is what im asking you guys to do. I tell my husband that all the time. lol He bitches about the way I do something, and I tell him "Well then, come up with a better way instead of just complaining!" I mean that in the nicest way.... but seriously guys.... something has to be done and if this isnt the way, what is?

It may not be geared to 1 breed. But still it is the government taking away rights. Also again how are they going to enforce it. In my county the only way they can enforce licences is when the owner goes to the vet gets his rabies vx and we send a copy to the county. And my point is ALOT of irresponsible owners do not take thier animal to the Vet in the first place. SO unless they plan on knocking on every door I really do not see how they can enforce it 100%

And paying how much more. Again in most counties you pay more to obtain a license for an unaltered pet already. And people pay it.

Also the same people that are ruining this breed and pump out litters every year will pay it. So either way it is a lose/lose situation. I do not see how it can work.

I do not plan on breeding but I do show 1 of my dogs. Why should I be punished along with all the irresponsible people.

I understand where you are comming from I also have worked at AC in Colorado. And it was heartbreaking.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by CynthiaATL It may not be geared to 1 breed. But still it is the government taking away rights. Also again how are they going to enforce it. In my county the only way they can enforce licences is when the owner goes to the vet gets his rabies vx and we send a copy to the county. And my point is ALOT of irresponsible owners do not take thier animal to the Vet in the first place. SO unless they plan on knocking on every door I really do not see how they can enforce it 100% And paying how much more. Again in most counties you pay more to obtain a license for an unaltered pet already. And people pay it. Also the same people that are ruining this breed and pump out litters every year will pay it. So either way it is a lose/lose situation. I do not see how it can work. I do not plan on breeding but I do show 1 of my dogs. Why should I be punished along with all the irresponsible people. I understand where you are comming from I also have worked at AC in Colorado. And it was heartbreaking.

From what I said earlier:

For Clark County, WA all animals that come in as strays by animal control cannot leave the facility without being spayed or neutered. As it is if you are an owner who lost their pet and you come to pick it up, you have to pay a penalty as well as pay to register it with Clark County. The spay/neuter would be in addition to that as they do have a surgical ward on site. Now a lot may argue that people will redeem their pets instead of paying the extra money to spay or neuter, and while that may be true, its better off that the animal is redeemed IMO and put up for adoption (spayed or neutered of course) than to go back to an owner that cannot or will not afford the extra surgery. NOW for the people that breed, show, ect. We are looking at ways to write in where you must obtain a Breeder Licence with AC. Since the Spay/Neuter will be for all breeds, as will the Breeder Licence. Breeders or people that show will be able to keep their animal intact for a nominal fee that must be renewed annualy. Now I know an arguement is how hard this would be enforcable and while I do see the issues with it, bottom line is that it will come down to if and when the animal is found as a stray or if and when AC comes to your residence for a complaint. Yes, many will fall through the cracks, but that is something that we have not completely worked out yet. Bottom line, in the long run, thousands of lives will be saved by never being born in the first place and I for one, would love to stop cleaning up irresponsible people's messes.

So, its not on the books yet, but it is something that im working on. My thought is that they enforce it with licences and when your animal comes in as a stray, or if you have a complaint and they come to the home. Realistically, no its not an easy one to enforce, but in the long run.... it WILL make a difference.

Its not a punishment to responsible people, but on that note, responsible pet owners should SEE the problem at hand and be ok with paying the extra IMO. Millions of animals are dying, and if you dont care, dont own one.

Maybe thats harsh, but SOMETHING has to change. If not a mandatory spay/neuter.... then what?

[CynthiaATL]

Ok your county does not already charge a higher fee for unaltered pets when getting the license?

Also I may be reading this incorrectly But If I lived in your county even though I am not breeding (nor want to) I would have to obtain a breeders license just to show.

And as far as when they come in as strays. Now those are the few of the total population out there. So yes it may make a small dent.

Again enforcing it would be the main issue. Because irresponsible people do not take their animal to the vet or will not follow the rules. I know I hear it alot some people with yards vx their own animals.

Again I understand where you are comming from but I feel as though that is taking away rights. And I should not have to pay more that I already do for having an unaltered dog. (where I live I already pay more for a license than someone with an altered animal)

I commend you what you do. I know the time and effort that you do. I also have rescued and placed dogs at my own expence and time. I have paid for S/N, ear canal resection(ear canal removed), vaccines, mange treament out of my own pocket. I still follow up on them.

By the way all 4 of my animals are altered except the one I show. So I do believe in S/N I just do not want to be forced to do it. And like I said I do agreee that the ones comming out of rescues, shelters should be S/N before being placed.

And you are correct I do not have a better solution. I wish there was one but making a law that is hard to enforce is a waste of time and money. What are they going to do if the owner does not comply. Take them to court. Fine them, jail? More money, manpower wasted. What about the crime already out there against humans?

I love animals. Shoot I became a Vet Tech because of it (believe me it aint the pay lol). I am looking at the bigger picture.

LOL I am repeating myself. I am going to bed.

[bahamutt99]

Fundamentally, I don't agree with mandatory s/n because I have seen very few laws that were sensibly written. We've got a good one here in Tulsa, but it still excludes some people. Overall, people who show/hunt/work their dogs would be allowed to breed, and others would not. However, its still legal to advertize pups without putting a permit # on the flyer, and enforcement is spotty at best. If a mandatory s/n law could be written so as to not in any way negatively impact positive breeding, not negatively impact the animals themselves (ie, none of that 4-month-old neuter stuff), and be enforceable, I would be in favor of it.

I also feel like the laws shouldn't be written so that only those who have the most money can follow them. If there's going to be mandatory s/n, there needs to be subsidized clinics where low-income people can get their pets altered. If there's going to be a permit to breed, it shouldn't cost $500, thereby excluding most working-class folk. (Ours costs $25 for the first year, $10 every year after. They also offer reduced pet licensing fees for microchipped pets that have a 3-year rabies shot.) It should be based on your ethics, not your wallet.