[Miho]

Ahh puppies puppies how we love them...

I had something come up that I was wondering if I could get some advice on. Orion hates to be restrained.. let me explain further.

He is a lap dog and he used to love being held. However since he has sprouted I cannot pick him up anymore, he is just too heavy. However, the past few weeks I have noticed that he is not letting us restrain him (like they hold him at the vet). It is not something that I like doing to him, but his ears had to be cleaned this week and it was a nightmare. My boyfriend is trying to hold him so I can use the drops and he is wiggling everywhere, crying, whining, doing anything he can to get free. He is not being aggressive, but he is not happy. Is this normal?

What can I do to get him comfortable with this position?

Thanks!

[luvapit]

restraining a dog can make them feel more vulnerable, maybe you could try hug the dog at home, praise him when he behaves, give him treats at the vets, talk excitedly, let him know its a good thing

[monkeys23]

Luvapit made some good suggestions. Also using treats for positive reinforcement can help with getting more comfortable in that respect, especially with "scary" stuff like nail trimming. Just take it slow and work up to getting super comfortable with it.

[Miakoda]

That's somewhat normal behavior. When you restrain a dog, you take away his "flight" option leaving him with only one other...."fight." So resist he does.

The best thing is to take it slowly. If you can clean the ears without having to have someone pin him to the floor, that's your best bet. Start small, such as put him in a sit, give treat, and then do a quick swipe with a cotton ball in one year. Praise him if he sat through it and let him go. The next day, do the same thing but swipe the other in. As time goes on, try to do a bit more...such as swipe and then put in the drops.

One hint for cleaning the hears, NEVER actually pour the ear cleaner into the ear canal! Pour some of it on a cotton ball, then put the cotton ball into the ear, lower the flap, and smoosh the cotton ball around. Then use the same technique with dry cotton balls to remove as much of the outer gunk as possible and to dry the ear as much as possible. I don't personally have an issue with using q-tips, but ONLY on a tolerant dog that will hold still for you! Do NOT use on squirmy dogs.

The same goes for cutting nails.

People are amazed that I don't have to physically restrain my dogs to clean ears or cut nails. For nails, I put them into a sit or down position and then pick up a paw and go to work. At this point, if a dog resists, that dog gets a verbal reprimand to "be still." For ear cleaning, I always put the dog in a down position, but I sit beside the dog usually with the head in my lap.

EDIT: I want to mention that at no time should you coo and coddle the dog and reinforce the nervous feelings and make him think he's doing good by being bad. I would venture to say that more times than not, people at the vet reinforce this bad behavior because in their minds their cooing is going to calm him down when in fact it only serves to encourage the behavior.

[Miho]

Thanks for the advice. I was unsure about my tone of voice and I was coddling him because I was afraid a firm tone of voice would just make him more afraid. Im going to give this a shot.

[Michele]

Miakoda: great advice

[Miho]

I just wanted to give an update. The holding and hugging has been working great. I will just give him a hug against me and talk to him the whole time telling him what a good boy he is. It seems to be working and he is getting more comfortable with it. I picked him up for the first time in awhle last night. God 17 pounds of pure muscle is heavy!!!

[gooddog]

I would like to add to above posts and recommend that you keep up with the touching of his ears paws so he gets desensitized to being touched in those areas. I would also recommend not to let this dog be a lap dog. pits like other dominant breeds will feel they are dominating you by lying on you.

[Zoe]

Dominant breed? I don't find them to be a "dominant" breed. Well, not with people anyway. At least none of the dogs I've owned and fostered, except for a few with temperament issues that didn't make the cut. That's actually what I love about them, their submissive nature to people. If sitting on my lap, would cause my pit bull to think it could dominate me... well... let's just say it wouldn't make it very long in this household!

[gooddog]

well the ones that didnt make the cut are the ones end up in kennels. That is why people need to learn how to deal with them.

[Zoe]

Personally, having had many, many fosters that have all come from the shelter system, I find the ones that wind up in kennels are one of two types. First, unfortunate dogs that wound up with people who never should have had a dog in the first place. You'd be surprised at the amazing dogs people will give up because there is something wrong with the person, not the dog. Second, dogs with a combination of high drive and bad manners, the bad manners again being cause by a person who never should have had a dog in the first place, did no research on the breed, and had zero clue on how to properly handle them. The ones that didn't make the cut, are the ones that needed to be culled, and they were. Calling them a dominant breed is exactly one of the misconceptions we are trying to educate against. In most cases, people who aren't experienced with the breed, mistake that high drive, bad manners and general exuberance as dominance . Dominance towards people is, in my opinion, NOT proper pit bull temperament and not something I personally am willing to deal with, other than by culling as I consider it a defective temperament trait. I can do whatever I see fit with my dogs. Let them sleep on the bed, sit on my lap, you name it, and I guarantee they aren't going to have temperament issues over it. Most of the pit bulls I have handled in over 17 years of handling the breed have been what they should be, amazingly people soft, biddable, and submissive towards their human family. Anything less is intolerable in my opinion.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Zoe Personally, having had many, many fosters that have all come from the shelter system, I find the ones that wind up in kennels are one of two types. First, unfortunate dogs that wound up with people who never should have had a dog in the first place. You'd be surprised at the amazing dogs people will give up because there is something wrong with the person, not the dog. Second, dogs with a combination of high drive and bad manners, the bad manners again being cause by a person who never should have had a dog in the first place, did no research on the breed, and had zero clue on how to properly handle them. The ones that didn't make the cut, are the ones that needed to be culled, and they were. Calling them a dominant breed is exactly one of the misconceptions we are trying to educate against. In most cases, people who aren't experienced with the breed, mistake that high drive, bad manners and general exuberance as dominance . Dominance towards people is, in my opinion, NOT proper pit bull temperament and not something I personally am willing to deal with, other than by culling as I consider it a defective temperament trait. I can do whatever I see fit with my dogs. Let them sleep on the bed, sit on my lap, you name it, and I guarantee they aren't going to have temperament issues over it. Most of the pit bulls I have handled in over 17 years of handling the breed have been what they should be, amazingly people soft, biddable, and submissive towards their human family. Anything less is intolerable in my opinion.

Excellent post. Excellent.

[chipinoh]

Originally Posted by gooddog I would like to add to above posts and recommend that you keep up with the touching of his ears paws so he gets desensitized to being touched in those areas.

Ditto. Also, get good & comfortable with teeth brushing & examination. I've always conditioned my dogs to be comfortable being touched anywhere, & my vet loves me for it.

[chipinoh]

Originally Posted by Zoe I can do whatever I see fit with my dogs. Let them sleep on the bed, sit on my lap, you name it, and I guarantee they aren't going to have temperament issues over it.

I agree - provided the dog knows to wait patiently (not whining or nudging) until invited onto the bed/couch/lap. My wife & I love sharing our king-size bed with our pack of 3 dogs, but they know it's a privilege, not a right. They also know that, ahem, there are times when they're not welcome...

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by gooddog well the ones that didnt make the cut are the ones end up in kennels. That is why people need to learn how to deal with them.

This comment has been really bothering me. It is such a huge misconception that shelter dogs are there because there is something wrong with them. It just not true and anyone who works with rescue dogs knows this. Again, another stereotype we have to educate against.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by chipinoh I agree - provided the dog knows to wait patiently (not whining or nudging) until invited onto the bed/couch/lap. My wife & I love sharing our king-size bed with our pack of 3 dogs, but they know it's a privilege, not a right. They also know that, ahem, there are times when they're not welcome...

Exactly. Just like any breed, they need to be taught manners, and learn their place in the pack, but I'm not about to tip toe around a dog for fear it will challenge me for position. To me there is a huge difference between a dog that will "test" it's limit's by bratty bad manners and a dog that will actually "challenge" you, in the "dominant" sense of the word. Again, I think in many cases, people mistake the two.

[luvapit]

great posts Zoe, I completely agree with it being the person's fault that a dog ended up in a shelter, not the dogs. I've seen and met too many rescue dogs that it really makes one wonder how anyone would have given up such a love!

[gooddog]

At least none of the dogs I've owned and fostered, except for a few with temperament issues that didn't make the cut. That's actually what I love about them, their submissive nature to people. If sitting on my lap, would cause my pit bull to think it could dominate me... well... let's just say it wouldn't make it very long in this household!
__________________
That is why I posted the statement about dogs going to the shelter. you said the dogs would not make the cut because if you let them in your bed and they did show dominance they would not make the cut. alot of dogs do show this behavior and then instead allot properly handling the problem people say they don't make the cut, also I notice you say they behave well around people you never state they are well behaved around other animals. I have raised two pit bulls a shar pei and trained many dogs. My dogs are good around everything including other animals and children because they know their place. I am not confrontational with them and I have them work for rewards. You are the one who made a state that is irrasponsible and you really should be educated because it is people like you if the dog does not lay on the bed and be your surragote child it wont make the cut.

[Zoe]

If I had a dog who didn't make the cut, it would not be shelter bound, it would be vet bound. I have raised five of my own personal pit bulls, working on a sixth. Two of which I got as adults, one who was extremely mishandled and came with a host of issues that within a year was completely turned around, and one who used to be a cat killer and was very dog aggressive. They all live together harmoniously {well, at least until this year when I lost my three old girls, RIP} with not only multiple cats, but rats that I have fostered and soon to be bunnies. My first two dogs were present at my sons home birth and handled it stellar, just like I expected. My daughter is special needs, came home with her bowels on the outside of her body, a feeding tube, a central line, and not only did my dogs behave properly around her, even though one of them had never been around a small baby before, but even with the stress of me being gone in hospital for months and months {almost a year} with her. One of them also alerted us when her liver was going down hill, before we even knew what was up, and I use her as a gauge to my daughters health before even the doctors can detect an issue. In the past 17 years I have had easily 200 dogs of all breed, from min pins, to rotti's, but mainly pit bulls come through my house, and I've never had a serious fight, and barely a scuffle, and those were only caused with the owner of the other dog present and their dog starting it, so I must be doing something right. I do not think it is irresponsible to cull dogs that are displaying improper temperament for their breed. Yes, a lot of DOGS do have dominance issues, but PIT BULLS in my opinion shouldn't. Period. My dogs are not my surrogate children. I have two children who fill that roll. They are my dogs, and they know their place, and having them lie on my bed, or not lie on my bed, shouldn't make any difference in their temperament. In the early days, my dogs did sleep on my bed, but as they aged, and three of them had spayed incontinence, I stopped them from being on the bed, and they made the transition without a bat of the eye. Why? Because I demanded it, and like pit bulls with proper temperament, and proper handling, they accepted MY dominance submissively and willingly, like they should.

In my opinion, some of the ways of the old days should be brought back. If you had a dog to protect the chickens and it was killing the chickens, it was culled. In this day and age, dogs are mainly pets/companions and I do not believe dogs with dominance issues, dogs you have to tip toe around to the point of not allowing them on your lap for a cuddle for fear of them challenging you, are needed in this society, especially with the constant threat of BSL looming over us all. I have no issue with dogs displaying behaviors appropriate for their breed whether that be animal aggression, guardian behaviors, etc... but what breed of dog was bred for handler aggression, or dominance towards it's family members? None. The domestication of dogs over thousand of years involved selecting canines that could be submissive to handling by humans. The "save them all" mentality in my opinion will be what causes all of us to loose our right to the breed or any dog that doesn't fit in a purse. When dogs are attacking family members because they have crap temperament, it affects us all negatively. If this belief is ignorance, I'll remain blissful in my uneducated, ignorance thanx.

Oh ya.. here's some pictures of my irresponsibly handled dogs, killing kids and attacking each other since I obviously don't know what I'm doing.




















































This is a VERY small sample of some of the dogs that have LIVED in my home, with a combination of proper handling and STELLAR, ROCK SOLID temperament. Anything less is simply not tolerated. My standards are high and it's very rare that a pit bull lets me down.

[Miho]

Yeah we have been good with handles his teeth, paws, ears, etc so that he is used to it. This holding back issue was something that recently came up. He never demonstrated a difficult time with us. It was not until the last vet visit that we decided to start training with it.

I do let Orion on my lap and couch, but he never assumes it is ok and when we tell him down he will lay at our feet.