[Scarlet Ruse]

Hi everyone, I'm new. First of all, this is going to be long, so please bear with me. My first pit bull was a female from a backyard breeder that we "saved" as a puppy by giving her a good home. She was very submissive and the sweetest little lover I ever knew. Absolutely no problems with any other dogs. Unfortunately she died just before she was 3 when she jumped a solid wood 6' fence and was hit by a car. She was like a gazelle. That is not what I'm writing about, I just wanted to let you know I've had one pit bull before this one.

Six months after her death my daughter gave me a pit bull puppy for Mother's day. She was only 1 week old and I got to pick her out from a friend of my daughter's. He was a backyard breeder. At 5 weeks he called & told me come get her because she was eating solid food. She is now 21 months and has pretty much been my constant companion except for one separation. When she was approx. 5 1/2 months I moved into an apartment and couldn't have her until I got a prescription for her. Due to unavoidable circumstances that took 5 months. She stayed with a friend of mine who had about 7 dogs of her own and was doing well. My friend knew something had happened one day when she came home and my dog ran to her shaking and trying to climb into her lap. She questioned her husband who said one of the dogs had peed in the house, which made him mad so he yelled at all of them. Who knows what else went on. She has not been the same ever since.

I am training her as my personal service dog, and we started going to the dog park about 13 months ago. She loved playing with all dogs but wouldn't let people walk up and touch her (she still doesn't). She had a few discipline problems, but with basic training and patience we got through it. A few months ago I left her at my friends house overnight because I had to go out of town and wouldn't be back until late. She assured me she would be home the whole time. The next day, before I picked her up, Poana (my pit) attacked a pomeranian and broke skin when it tried to go under the porch where Poana was lying. I learned never to leave her alone with small dogs.

One day at the dog park recently, a dog was drinking water and she put her head down for a drink at the same time and the other dog growled and snapped at her. In a moments time they were both circling and growling and I was afraid a fight was about to start. I was able to get hold of Poana and took her out of the park. Last week we were there with another pit bull and they played wonderfully together. Yesterday we went, and when I took her through the first gate and stopped to remove her pinch collar, another dog walked up to the fence trying to smell her. The collar was still on and I was holding the leash and she jumped at this dog growling and sounding a little vicious. I pulled her away and we left. That was the second time that a dog approached her while leashed and she acted like she wanted to attack it. She will be 2 in 3 months. She's never showed people aggression but like I said, backs away and doesn't want them to touch her.

We go in stores and fast food restaurants and walk all over town. She's coming along well with her SD training. She doesn't always come when I call her when she is off leash in the yard but a tennis ball gets her instant attention. What's happening and what should I do? She is spayed.

[Zoe]

She is a pit bull that is maturing into dog aggression. It's completely normal for the breed. Stop taking her to dog parks and find more "pit bull friendly" ways to keep her mentally and physically stimulated {ie spring pole, flirt pole, long walks, off leash play time in a secure fenced yard, etc... As far as her shyness with people, I'll try and add some more on that later. I'm really bushed right now! lol

Here's couple links to read actually...

Pit Bulls And Dog Parks
http://www.pbrc.net/dogpark.html

Breaking Sticks
http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Breed Info
http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

[Michele]

Stop taking the dog to dog parks. As Zoe said, there are other things that you can do with your dog. Also, your dog should never be unsupervised around other dogs at this point.

Pit bulls and Dog Parks
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=3113

[johnnyoops]

Pitbulls and dog parks don't mix due to their natural dog aggressive tendancies. I agree with Zoe, she's reaching maturity and going through some changes. Always, always supervise an APBT around other dogs.

[PNWPBR]

I agree with what others have already said, no dog parks!

I do have questions though about what you mean when you say she wont allow people to walk up and pet her..... that is highly abnormal for this breed. Could you clarify?

[ilovetyson]

My staffy has never had issues at the Dog park. But my labradoodle does.. Go figure. But, yes, Some Pitties Either mature and not care about other dogs.. and some.. Like mine.. don't mind them. I Think I am lucky with that. But, I would.. Like said.. Just not take her back to the dog park. Sorry you have to go through this.

[Scarlet Ruse]

In my previous post I wrote what follows in the next paragraph. If someone she doesn't know walks up and reaches to pet her she backs away from them. She doesn't growl or act aggressive in any way, she just doesn't want a stranger to touch her. If she sees someone frequently and has gotten used to them then they can pet her and she is even happy to see them. Whenever we're out walking around town and going in stores I'm working on her SD training and she wears a backpack with tags that say "Service Dog In Training" and "Working - Don't Touch ." She's so beautiful that people always want to walk up and pet her. If they ask first I tell them no because she needs to concentrate on me. She has NEVER shown any signs of being people aggressive, I'm not worried about that. She started acting like this after the following incident.

When she was approx. 5 1/2 months I moved into an apartment and couldn't have her until I got a prescription for her. Due to unavoidable circumstances that took 5 months. She stayed with a friend of mine who had about 7 dogs of her own and was doing well. My friend knew something had happened one day when she came home and my dog ran to her shaking and trying to climb into her lap. She questioned her husband who said one of the dogs had peed in the house, which made him mad so he yelled at all of them. Who knows what else went on. She has not been the same ever since.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse In my previous post I wrote what follows in the next paragraph. If someone she doesn't know walks up and reaches to pet her she backs away from them. She doesn't growl or act aggressive in any way, she just doesn't want a stranger to touch her. If she sees someone frequently and has gotten used to them then they can pet her and she is even happy to see them. Whenever we're out walking around town and going in stores I'm working on her SD training and she wears a backpack with tags that say "Service Dog In Training" and "Working - Don't Touch ." She's so beautiful that people always want to walk up and pet her. If they ask first I tell them no because she needs to concentrate on me. She has NEVER shown any signs of being people aggressive, I'm not worried about that. She started acting like this after the following incident. When she was approx. 5 1/2 months I moved into an apartment and couldn't have her until I got a prescription for her. Due to unavoidable circumstances that took 5 months. She stayed with a friend of mine who had about 7 dogs of her own and was doing well. My friend knew something had happened one day when she came home and my dog ran to her shaking and trying to climb into her lap. She questioned her husband who said one of the dogs had peed in the house, which made him mad so he yelled at all of them. Who knows what else went on. She has not been the same ever since.

Thanks for the clarification on that. I guess possibly her being a service dog would make her less handlable, or maybe what happened to her as a pup BUT remember that with an APBT that has rock solid temperament, a situation like that normall does not faze them. They are people dogs through and through and one that does not solicit human attention from strangers makes me pause and think. Not to say she is HA or would become HA....

[Scarlet Ruse]

I forgot to mention that she is afraid of loud noises, bicycles going right next to her, motorcycles, and I can't think what else, very timid. When she is in the car with the windows up (in cold weather) and someone touches the window she jumps at the window growling and barking. I rarely leave her in the car by herself because she's usually with me. If I'm going out somewhere she can't go I leave her at home. I mean if I leave her to run in and pay for gas or to run in the store for just 1 item and I know it will be less than 5 minutes is when I would leave her alone in the car. And never in hot weather. I just want you all to know she is very well cared for and babied and loved very much. I have to work this out because it would kill me to have to put her down because of aggression. That's why I'm asking for advice.

[Hoyden]

Okay, I am going to be blunt here. Don't take your dog to dog parks. period. And be careful at regular parks to. We were recently attacked by an off leash golden retriever and both of us were bitten.

I use a pit bull as a service dog and I personally see some red flags here.

1) Backing AWAY from people is not good. I personally belief fear breeds aggression, so this is something I would advise you to find a good trainer and sort out immediately. Being yelled at a few times should not even phase her.

2) Jumping at the window growling and barking is not good either. A service dog should NOT have any guarding tendencies or barrier aggression.

What happens if a paramedic or EMT needs to approach to assist you? Your dog needs to stay RIGHT THERE and not back away, but also allow them to help you. This is something that you HAVE to train her to do. If you are in a car accident, she could prevent help from getting to you. They WILL shoot your dog if you are in a medical crisis and she is guarding and will not let anyone near. I have been told this by a police officer and the EMTs we train with.

3) One of my trainers told me that all dogs have SOME kind of fears. It's how the dog addresses and overcomes those fears that is an indicator of the dog's temperament.

Birdie used to be scared of elevators. FLIPPED out when we got in one. But we worked through it. Started with itty bitty baby steps and progressed forward.

Walk into elevator, walk out, praise and treat. Repeat ad nauseum until it was not big deal to walk into the scary elevator.

Then we closed the door. Pushed the open button, got out, praise & treat. Moved on.

Went up ONE FLOOR, got off elevator, praise and treat, then walked down stairs and left. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Until it is NOTHING to the dog.

Then we went up TWO floors.

Take apart each fear you need to address and take it one itty, bitty, painful step at a time, repeating until it becomes second nature. Then take the next itty bitty step.

If you attempt to jump ahead at all or rush training, you will only set yourself farther back.


Personally, I do not feel that a timid dog makes a good service dog. What you need to determine, preferably with a good trainer, is whether your dog is truly timid/fearful or if she's fearful because she hasn't been exposed to it, so she isn't sure how to respond to it.

Fast moving motor bikes and bicycles can be scary to a dog. What happens if you sit on the porch, a bus bunch or stand at a busy intersection?

You can address loud noises. Birdie used to try to gobble her food when we fed her because my house is a noisy three ring circus ALL the time. I put a big round rock through the dishwasher and plunked it in her dog bowl to slow how fast she ate. I also fed her kibble from my hands. We tuned down the circus at eating time a bit and just gradually cranked it back up as she got used to it.

My youngest daughter is hell on feet and makes an unholy racket all the time. Pounding on snare drums, schreiking on plastic records, blaring her music while she jumps around like a rhino doing aerobics, yelling across the house, dropping cymbals on the floor, running around with a plastic toy chainsaw. OBNOXIOUS!

This is what my dog lives with, so after awhile, noises didn't phase her. I still randomly drop something big loud and noisy to see how she will react.


Okay, I've written a book.. Hope so this helps. I'll answer what I can if you have any more questions.

[Scarlet Ruse]

[quote=Hoyden;48331
Fast moving motor bikes and bicycles can be scary to a dog. What happens if you sit on the porch, a bus bunch or stand at a busy intersection?[/quote]

She is really good waiting at corners, she sits patiently and waits until I move forward when the light changes. Traffic going by doesn't bother her, even if there is a loud muffler. Normal everyday sounds that she's used to don't bother her. I live in a small town so there aren't many buses going by and we're not out that often. If a loud motorcycle speeds by very fast in the lane closest to the sidewalk it startles her and she'll back up a little. When walking down the bike/jogging/walking path and a bicycle comes either from in front of us or behind us, it does scare her and she'll jump off the path. I always reassure her everything is OK.

Thank you all for your advice
Poana's mom

She is afraid of the elevator, the first time I took her on it she went in hesitantly and when it started to move she laid on the floor afraid. She wouldn't get back in it again. I will be working on that. When we first started walking she would not walk on metal plates in the sidewalk. It took a while and I got her past that, now she doesn't even think about it. The first time I tried to take her in a store the sliding doors scared her and that took a lot of work, now she's eager to go in stores and enjoys it. Shiny floors and wood floors used to scare her but we've been working on it. Most of the time she's OK now, but when the floor is extremely shiny it still worries her and she creeps a little until she sees it's OK.

Thank you for your advice and I will certainly work slowly on the things she's afraid of. She is only 21 months old so I think with love and patience she'll get over her fears. It's just the aggression that is just starting that scared me. I will follow everyone's advice and work slowly. I can't afford a trainer because I live on disability. I can't do the spring pole and flirt pole because I live in an apartment. But I do walk her when weather permits and we play with the tennis ball outside a lot for exercise, when weather permits.

I always reassure her everything is OK.

Bad idea, never reassure a dog when it's in a fear mode, you'll only reinforce the fear. Act nonchalantly and matter of fact and the dog will follow suit.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by huskylove Bad idea, never reassure a dog when it's in a fear mode, you'll only reinforce the fear. Act nonchalantly and matter of fact and the dog will follow suit.

Fantastic point to bring up.

A confident owner will usually have a confident dog.... reassuring and coddling only reinforces the behavior and fear.

Without conciously doing it, you are actually telling your dog it is OK to be afraid, instead of what you intend, which is to tell your dog the situation is OK and not to be afraid.


LOL hope I just made sense, its been a long day.

[Hoyden]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse She is really good waiting at corners, she sits patiently and waits until I move forward when the light changes. Traffic going by doesn't bother her, even if there is a loud muffler. Normal everyday sounds that she's used to don't bother her. I live in a small town so there aren't many buses going by and we're not out that often. If a loud motorcycle speeds by very fast in the lane closest to the sidewalk it startles her and she'll back up a little. When walking down the bike/jogging/walking path and a bicycle comes either from in front of us or behind us, it does scare her and she'll jump off the path. I always reassure her everything is OK.

As a human, most of us feel the need to comfort/reassure when someone is afraid. Reassuring your dog when she/he shows fear reinforces the fear. You are telling her it's okay to be fearful and jump off the path or back-up. That is NOT what you want.

Hold the leash firm and do not let her back up when a motor bike goes by. Just keep walking like you did not even hear it. If there is a place near the road where you can sit while traffic goes by, that will acclimate her to the noises.

To address the fear of the bicycles going past you, you want to approach it by breaking it down into little bits. Here is my suggestion for trying to work through that fear:

1) Find a bench or something that you can sit on that is at least 30 feet, (50 ft is preferable) away from the entrance of the path. You want to be able to watch the bikes from a distance. Alternate sitting down and standing up with Poana in a sit next to you while the bikes go by.

• DO NOT REACT to any fear that she shows. School yourself so that you do not allow her distress to affect you.
• If she reacts, ignore it. Don't let her pull you away or jump away. Calmly tell her to sit, and if necessary, physically, but gently guide her back into a sit.
• If there are alot of bikes going in & out, sit for 3 to 5 minutes at first and increase the the time. Or better yet, count the bikes. Start with 5 bikes, then go to 10 bikes.

You are going to want to do this for quite awhile, until she is calm at the site of bikes moving in the distance.

Then you are going to creep about 10 feet closer. And repeat. If she shows fear. Back up 5 feet, but no more than 5 feet.

You will gradually creep forward until you can stand about 3 feet away from the path with bikes going in and out with out any fear.

Don't walk on the path with the bikes if you can help it. If at anytime a bike goes by and she tries to jump away, don't let her. Hold the leash firm in your hand and keep going. Do not verbally or physically acknowledge that fear.

If I were holding the leash and she jump off the path, I would simply say "Let's Go" and keep walking as if nothing had happened. If she pulled me down (I have really really bad balance) I'd get up, get back on the path and keep going, without acknowledging that she pulled me down or the fear that caused it.

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse She is afraid of the elevator, the first time I took her on it she went in hesitantly and when it started to move she laid on the floor afraid. She wouldn't get back in it again. I will be working on that. When we first started walking she would not walk on metal plates in the sidewalk. It took a while and I got her past that, now she doesn't even think about it. The first time I tried to take her in a store the sliding doors scared her and that took a lot of work, now she's eager to go in stores and enjoys it. Shiny floors and wood floors used to scare her but we've been working on it. Most of the time she's OK now, but when the floor is extremely shiny it still worries her and she creeps a little until she sees it's OK.

With the elevator, back up and approach it the way I explained in my previous post. A ride was too much for her. So walk in and out, then progress to shutting the door, then going up one floor.

We had the same issue with the doors at the warehouse stores and home improvement stores that had those blowers in the foyer ways. I just backed up and walked past the door just outside of the area where the blower reached and went in the other entrance at Home Depot. Next time i walked along the edge of the area where the blower reached, then I walked through the middle of the blower area. Then finally, I just walked through the door at quick pace, not letting her react to it and kept a quick pace until I reached the end of the isle.

I was returning paint because they gave me the wrong can of paint and dropped the leash accidentally while going through the door. Birdie picked up one foot as if to back away, I told her "Let go" and she stayed right by my side through the door, then did a doggie victory dance by standing on her hind feet and spinning in a circle when we stepped off the entrance mat. She knew she did it.

Walking on a stable hard surface should not phase Poana at all. Don't slow down and let her creep. Keep going.

Do you have access to playground or a school with one of those playscapes that has different surfaces and bridges on them??

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse Thank you for your advice and I will certainly work slowly on the things she's afraid of. She is only 21 months old so I think with love and patience she'll get over her fears. It's just the aggression that is just starting that scared me. I will follow everyone's advice and work slowly. I can't afford a trainer because I live on disability. I can't do the spring pole and flirt pole because I live in an apartment. But I do walk her when weather permits and we play with the tennis ball outside a lot for exercise, when weather permits.

The aggression is something that you do need to address with a good trainer.

What kind of drive does she have? Food drive, play drive, toy drive?

[Scarlet Ruse]

I wouldn't say she has a food drive, she likes treats but won't always accept the treat if her mind is on something else. One thing she loves is when I throw tennis balls for her to retrieve. When we did go to the dog park I tried to keep a tennis ball with me because if I showed her the ball and prepared to throw it she would stop playing immediately and keep her eyes on the ball & then chase it when I threw it. She was never possessive of the ball if another dog ran after it too. Don't worry, I stopped taking her to the dog park. When we go downstairs into the grassy area at the apartment complex I let her 15' leash go and play ball with her. I leave it on her in case I need to catch her in a hurry. I can't throw far so she doesn't get far away. I also throw between the building and the fence with another fence at the end and I always stand at the open end to block her if necessary. She's been very good about not taking off and running from me. When I walk, if I keep the ball in my hand she stays by my side watching the ball. If she sees another dog on the sidewalk or across the street she looks at it but doesn't run at it and I redirect her attention with my voice and the ball. She's really such a good girl in so many things.

There is a park within walking distance and I believe they have the chain bridge and slides and may other surfaces. What do you suggest?


As for the elevator, I figured out I messed up the training when she wouldn't go back in. So now I have to start training for the elevator; we'll practice at the library because theirs isn't in use very often.

As for the bikes, that sounds like a great idea and when spring arrives and we start walking the bike trail again I'll practice getting her used to the bikes as advised. It sounds like a great idea. I didn't realize I was enforcing the fear.

I've had dogs for most of my adult life, but they were just family dogs and we taught them basic obedience and that was all that was needed. Poana is the first dog I've ever tried to train. We went through basic obedience with a trainer and he said I had a very good rapport with her and handled her well. She was well ahead of the other dogs in the class. Now I'm going to get some books on training service dogs and I will talk to the trainer again and see if there is some job I could do for him in trade for training. He's a very nice man.

You've been very helpful and offer good advice and I appreciate it.

[Hoyden]

So she has ball drive. If done correctly, you may be able to use that to help her over come fears.

Birdie was afraid of people in full plate armor (Think Knights in shining armor at the Renaissance Faire) and we used her food drive to work through it. I licked American Cheese and stuck it to my friend's greeves (lower leg portion) so she had to address the fear to get to that cheese. I also had him stand with his feet apart and put her food dish between his feet (with a rock in the bowl of course.)

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse There is a park within walking distance and I believe they have the chain bridge and slides and may other surfaces. What do you suggest?

To get her used to all kinds of surfaces, both steady and not so steady, you may want to do some training on the playscape.

I found that training on the playscape at odd hours when no one was there was very beneficial for us. Not only did Birdie get used to the weird surfaces and things that moved under her feet, we learned how to work together to keep me on my feet.

[Scarlet Ruse]

Originally Posted by Hoyden So she has ball drive. If done correctly, you may be able to use that to help her over come fears.

How would I do that, any suggestions? Also, any suggestions for books I could read to teach me how to do this training?

[Hoyden]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Ruse How would I do that, any suggestions? Also, any suggestions for books I could read to teach me how to do this training?

I will try to add things on as I think of them. I can be a scatter brain at times, so bear with me. I'll try to put up as much as I can for you. I should just be smart and make a training blog here.

If you can do it SAFELY, try playing ball near somewhere where bikes will pass by and she will be able to see them. Small steps, set her up to succeed and end each training session on positive note.

If there is someplace with a nice shiny floor on which you can play ball, do it. Check with the mall, sometimes they will let you come train really early in the morning before they open, especially if they let people come walk in the morning before they open. Make that scary shiny floor fun.

We did some of our elevator training at 6:30 & 7am at the mall. Birdie is an attention whore and the elderly people walking at the mall loved to pet her. When we were further along in training, I would give them the thumbs up signal through the glass when the car arrived, tell her to sit until the doors opened, exit in an orderly fashion and then release her so they could give her loves and pets and congratulate her. That was her paycheck for successfully completing that task with confidence. The elevator was no longer scary it was a means to get to go see all the Grandmas and Grandpas she loves.

I found that multiple short training sessions through out the day was far more effective that one or two longer ones. Typically our training sessions last from 2 to 10 minutes each and we train anywhere from 4 to 10 or 12 times every day. Of course that depends on the length of the training session. I typically train for a total of 20 to 60 minutes per day.

Keep in mind that as long as your dog is working as a service dog, you need to commit yourself to training until the dog is retired and beyond. Training NEVER stops. Once a task is mastered, you don't stop training it, you add distraction and continue on or just train to reinforce the task.

START A TRAINING JOURNAL OR BLOG!! I did mine manually at first then started to put it in an online journal that is private. But either way make sure you back it up or duplicate it for safety. This is critical because you will have a record of training if you are challenged at a later date. Make it a habit to notate your training. Record the date, the amount of time that you trained for, the task(s) you worked on in each session, progress or issues encountered, etc. This will also help a trainer when you work with one later on.


I'm sure I'll catch hell for this, but I do not believe in pure positive training. I wasted time trying to do that with Birdie and ended up frustrating the hell out of myself and confusing her. We were much more successful when I used a balanced positive/negative training approach. Corrections and praise as needed. Correction lets the dog know that the behavior is wrong, not acceptable or not what you want, praise lets the dog know they did it right. I do not use corrections with fear issues. That is the only time I ignore a behavior that I don't want because correcting will increase the fear, just as reassurance will.

[Scarlet Ruse]

I think I know one or two spots along the bike trail where we can play ball and it's separated from the trail by a drainage ditch. When the ground and weather become suitable again I'll start on that.

The mall is 20 miles away so I'll have to look around for a free shiny floor.

Thank you for your advice, you've been very helpful so far. I will start a training diary, too, that sounds like an excellent idea!

[Miakoda]

Originally Posted by PNWPBR Thanks for the clarification on that. I guess possibly her being a service dog would make her less handlable, or maybe what happened to her as a pup BUT remember that with an APBT that has rock solid temperament, a situation like that normall does not faze them. They are people dogs through and through and one that does not solicit human attention from strangers makes me pause and think. Not to say she is HA or would become HA....

I agree.

It actually takes a whole lot to ruin a dog with a stable temperament. I've dealt with dogs that have been drug behind vehicles, lit on fire, screamed at, hit, beaten, and much more and these dogs continued to love and trust people.

IMO it sounds as if your dog does NOT have a stable temperament and you need to not only make obedience a daily activitiy, but watch her very, very closely.