[Shes Got Heart]

I am sure that this has been thought of before. But it is occurring to me more and more that the American Bully will go the way of the English Bulldog. There are several similarities to the development of these breeds. First is history.

The two breeds came from the same ancestors. The original bulldog as we all know was large and impressive. He was bred to battle animals much larger than he was. But the original Bulldog branched off into separate breeds after bull baiting was made illegal. Those who wanted to continue with blood sports came up with the small athletic quick and intelligent Pit Bull type for dog fighting. Those who wanted to develop the Bulldog into a pet, bred the English bulldog of today. My understanding is they were breeding this dog to have the unique "bulldog" look but to the extreme, almost cartoonish look. I'm sure they also bred to have a temperamentally sound dog. One thing was sure, they no longer cared about the athletic aspects of the original bulldog. Not at all unlike the reasons the American Bully is bred today. "over exaggerated looks"

The people breeding pit bulls were not breeding for looks. They were breeding for performance and temperament. They were breeding dogs that could breath and have stamina.

In the 1970's when dog fighting was made illegal in the united states most people only into the dogs for that reason fell away from pit bull breeding. It was said that the American Bully was started in the 1990's. For what more than an image, and as they claim temperament. These dogs have not been bred with athleticism in mind. Where as the American Pit Bull Terrier is still being bred for along with his other great attributes.

The goal for the English Bulldog was to be shorter, wider, with a bigger head. The goal for the American Bully is to be shorter, wider, with a bigger head. The breeders have little regard for what they are doing to the structural soundness of this breeds body.

So lets look down the road, lets say 30 years from now. Do you think the American Bully will have the short nose and under bite achieved at that point? Do you think breeders will be aiming for that next? Will American Bullies eventually need to be bred through artificial insemination and have a c-section surgery to born puppies. The American Bully is already a mess structurally. They will probably become drooling snorting pit bull versions of the English bulldog.

I think this is the reason we are all upset at the changing of our breed. As most will say... we do not hate the dog itself. They are just being bred for all of the wrong reasons. Think about the cost comparison as well. It is not unheard of for someone to spend 1500 on an english bulldog, as well as it's not unheard of for someone to spend 1500 on an American Bully.

Lets keep this topic clean as I am not trying to make it a thread about how the pit bull is superior. I just thought it was an interesting topic that needed more light shed.

[DieselDawg]

I agree...example is the "Hippo" line amoung others. Breeding of APBT should actually be much more controlled. For the most part is should be slowed down and done properly. Any dog outside the standards should be called what it is...a mix. There is nothing wrong with any mix IMHO...but the breeders that call thier pups APBTs when they are far from that are hurting the whole Bull Breed.

[screamin'eagle]

I'll respond more when I have more time, but one thing that wasn't accounted for in the original post is that EB blood was used in formulating the American Bully...

on that note...How can they become something they already are?

In otherwords, although the APBT name was hijacked the American Bully is not a case of selectively breeding poor specimens, and after many generations creating something different. There is evidence that Bull Mastiff and EB was used in formulating this breed.

[Miakoda]

Originally Posted by screamin'eagle I'll respond more when I have more time, but one thing that wasn't accounted for in the original post is that EB blood was used in formulating the American Bully... on that note...How can they become something they already are? In otherwords, although the APBT name was hijacked the American Bully is not a case of selectively breeding poor specimens, and after many generations creating something different. There is evidence that Bull Mastiff and EB was used in formulating this breed.

Exactly.

[Shes Got Heart]

They probably do have english bulldog anyway. I am just putting out the question as to if this faze kept up is the American Bully "america's expression" of an english bulldog.

[TheVictor22]

Originally Posted by screamin'eagle I'll respond more when I have more time, but one thing that wasn't accounted for in the original post is that EB blood was used in formulating the American Bully... on that note...How can they become something they already are? In otherwords, although the APBT name was hijacked the American Bully is not a case of selectively breeding poor specimens, and after many generations creating something different. There is evidence that Bull Mastiff and EB was used in formulating this breed.

With that being said why are they aloud to call them APBT? When they are not. This is what chaps my a$$. And now i get uneducated retards asking me why my dog if so small and why her head is so big? Is she sick? And telling me she must be a mix. These breeders should not even be able to use the APBT name. If people want "fat tank dogs" then they want an "American Bully" NOT A PIT BULL!

[monkeys23]

Originally Posted by DieselDawg I agree...example is the "Hippo" line amoung others. Breeding of APBT should actually be much more controlled. For the most part is should be slowed down and done properly. Any dog outside the standards should be called what it is...a mix. There is nothing wrong with any mix IMHO...but the breeders that call thier pups APBTs when they are far from that are hurting the whole Bull Breed.

I agree with this, but I also think its going to be very, very difficult to control breeding of the actual APBT and to get the general population educated enough to truly know the difference between an Am. Bully being passed off as a "pit bull" and the actual APBT breed.

Really all shelter APBT's would have to be called APBT mixes (unless of course they come with records from a reputable breeder) because no one can say for sure what their breeding is. I think it would be pretty hard to get people willing to make that distinction because to a lot of people a "pit bull" is a "pit bull" is a "pit bull". Looking at shelter listings, I see many examples of a dog up for adoption being labeled a "pit bull terrier mix" or a "lab/pit bull mix". Some of the ones I've seen in person do not look mixed at all, so this begs to question of how much shelters fudge the breed labels to move dogs through the shelter. Would they start using the Am. Bully name to get away from the fear associated with "pit bull"? ...just a thought to mull over.

How on earth can the whole situation really be resolved with all the really bad breeding being done? That is a huge problem that has had a devastating impact on the breed and I think its evident simply from the emergence of the American Bulldog because it just got so far from standard that it had to be labeled something else (not to mention the addition of other breeds like Mastiff and E. Bulldog).

Very likely the Am. Bully will get to the point where it is just as much a mess physiologically as the E. Bulldog; especially the way byb's are churning out "tank dogs" for people who want to look cool. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[screamin'eagle]

Originally Posted by TheVictor22 With that being said why are they aloud to call them APBT? When they are not. This is what chaps my a$$. And now i get uneducated retards asking me why my dog if so small and why her head is so big? Is she sick? And telling me she must be a mix. These breeders should not even be able to use the APBT name. If people want "fat tank dogs" then they want an "American Bully" NOT A PIT BULL!

All I can on this is the all mighty dollar. Registeries will register many, many dogs as the APBT.

http://www.abkcdogs.org/index.asp

Alot of people don't know that the American Bully Kennel Club has been formed, and is registering the American Bully by that name as opposed to the APBT. Start getting the word out, and become strict at making the distinctions. An American Bully is what it is, and an American Pitbull Terrier is what it is...and they are two different breeds!

[screamin'eagle]

nice post

Originally Posted by monkeys23 I agree with this, but I also think its going to be very, very difficult to control breeding of the actual APBT and to get the general population educated enough to truly know the difference between an Am. Bully being passed off as a "pit bull" and the actual APBT breed. Really all shelter APBT's would have to be called APBT mixes (unless of course they come with records from a reputable breeder) because no one can say for sure what their breeding is. I think it would be pretty hard to get people willing to make that distinction because to a lot of people a "pit bull" is a "pit bull" is a "pit bull". Looking at shelter listings, I see many examples of a dog up for adoption being labeled a "pit bull terrier mix" or a "lab/pit bull mix". Some of the ones I've seen in person do not look mixed at all, so this begs to question of how much shelters fudge the breed labels to move dogs through the shelter. Would they start using the Am. Bully name to get away from the fear associated with "pit bull"? ...just a thought to mull over. How on earth can the whole situation really be resolved with all the really bad breeding being done? That is a huge problem that has had a devastating impact on the breed and I think its evident simply from the emergence of the American Bulldog because it just got so far from standard that it had to be labeled something else (not to mention the addition of other breeds like Mastiff and E. Bulldog). Very likely the Am. Bully will get to the point where it is just as much a mess physiologically as the E. Bulldog; especially the way byb's are churning out "tank dogs" for people who want to look cool. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[tat2stuff]

Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart I am sure that this has been thought of before. But it is occurring to me more and more that the American Bully will go the way of the English Bulldog. There are several similarities to the development of these breeds. First is history. The two breeds came from the same ancestors. The original bulldog as we all know was large and impressive. He was bred to battle animals much larger than he was. But the original Bulldog branched off into separate breeds after bull baiting was made illegal. Those who wanted to continue with blood sports came up with the small athletic quick and intelligent Pit Bull type for dog fighting. Those who wanted to develop the Bulldog into a pet, bred the English bulldog of today. My understanding is they were breeding this dog to have the unique "bulldog" look but to the extreme, almost cartoonish look. I'm sure they also bred to have a temperamentally sound dog. One thing was sure, they no longer cared about the athletic aspects of the original bulldog. Not at all unlike the reasons the American Bully is bred today. "over exaggerated looks"

here's the "Bully Recipe"

"Razors Edge was started in MD and DC long before there was ever a Knuckles. My friend Carlos Barksdale and I started it with game dogs. We researched everything we could find. We read every book publicized at that time. Subscribed to many dog magazines like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. We called damn near every breeder that we could find and questioned them. If it said Pit, we were on it. We all had already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. We even had our own Pit club and went hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually we got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game dogs. We purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great "Plumbers Alligator", mainly Mayfield lines. We were very heavy into the game lines. I had dogs from Hemphill/Wilder blood. These were big game dogs.
Later on I hooked up with George Williams in DC and we purchased a dog we named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo's dad was a bigger catch dog, "Hollinsworth Bull". His mom was a game girl names "Wildsides Ms.Leaky". This was the turn around time when Razors Edge started adding more size.
The first ever registered "ADBA" Razors Edge breeding was from my Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater. Now CLP Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge dog. We would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again.
I had another pure Colby male named Dante that was placed in DC with my man Dave Conrad. Dante went on and shook up DC, but that was the old days.
They banned Pits in PG County and I was forced to move. Eventually through my job in the Pet Store industry I landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in Va. Virginia was the spot for pet lovers! I managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, I bred my own now. I also put fliers n the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge was. I had to move to Va.
I hooked up with Jeannie Howe who became a co-owner of Razors Edge.
I met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took it to another level.
I saw this blue dog named "Steel Town Blue Monday"! I was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the son. He had been researching on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really is the "Pit Guru".
We first contact Cock 'n' Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned us onto people in Cali with that blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent us pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame. She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation bitches in the Greyline! So this was years before Greyline was even around.

We went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, My man Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A's, Minot's Ledge, etc…… We actually purchased a blue brindle female named "Sadey" from Minot's Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A's dogs like "Oreo" and "Reo Speedwagon". Dogs I had seen and liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits eventually were registered as Staffs! I thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog I owned. Then the bottom half of the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs I grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard Stratton, LOL! Then behind them were the same Colby dogs I saw on the top half of the pedigree. So I had this dog that showed the history of the Am.Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. We also purchased a male named "Razors Edge Blue Maxx". His top half was a dog named "StoryTime's Upon this Rock" AKA "Peter" Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He was a big ass dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to "Wassuc's Farm Maggie May". I really liked this compact girl. We researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When we got to see the Ryan dogs we were surprised to see they were game dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something I had never seen, I'm sure that's why the AKC people didn't like that line. However; I loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that's what I am talking about! LOL Maxx was our boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big hot Blue Fawn AKC boy.
In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs I had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for what I was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Paco, was in my opinion actually a throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, The Garretts, etc….We visited them all. Even went down to Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, we went up to Md and met Kimmar Kennels. As soon as I stepped on the ranch, I knew I had found the build I was looking for! The Razors Edge package was almost complete.
We also had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young Kats from DC used to come down and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an add in the post under the Pit Bull adds, it said "Petey pups". They didn't want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff? Anyway, local Kats knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey's pop, and their boys had a bunch of these dogs. Even some old friends of mine Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. We all also had game stuff in the mix. I tapped into a lot of their dogs as well.
In Kimmar's yard I learned a lot about breeding and genetics. I spent every weekend there for almost three years. I actually put on a training class for all her buyers every Sunday.
Razors Edge had been breeding now for a few generations. We even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron, also had some York dogs, and some other AKC stuff, we experimented with. Before we got Knuckles or any of them, Razors Edge was already in the game. Kimmar actually used our dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15 dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it's formula. We just wanted a different head. We also were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead! This is where Razors Edge became heavily involved in UKC.
Ron made a sharp turn and went back into the game dogs. He jumped heavy into the RedBoy line and vanished?
I started searching for a better head and came into some Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so I had to find that blood somewhere else. I bought dogs from Grapevine Kennels. I hit up Hughzee's, who I believe later on became Chaos Kennels. We had been talking to Pam from Gaff Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So we got a dog from her. We experimented with a lot of lines and different dogs. Razors Edge started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but we still wanted the to be a little more blocky. A few generations later it was pretty much there.

The reason for posting this is because we have been asked how this line began. Also to show that it goes way beyond the dogs you see today. It wasn't just as easy as breeding two dogs and waiting a couple of generations and calling it a line. This was creation from research, and as you can see, many years and lines went into it. This is just the backbone info too. Razors Edge had many ears to follow before the line was complete.

Razors Edge Maxx had kids featured on the cover of DogWorld at this time. So the name was out, and Knuckles was still a pup!

Then one day a man called from an advertisement we placed in The Washington Post. He came by with this little blocky head blue puppy male he called Mr.Brooks. There it was, the final ingredient. By the way, this was 1992 ish. Gary and I collaborated on many breedings from that point on. We both started showing our dogs and doing quite well in the ring. By 1994 Razors Edge had it's final look and was consistently producing it. Thanks to all these lines and people involved. A lot happened from that point on…..but that's an even longer story. A lot of people claim to know these dogs and this line; but this is before they got into the dogs.

Dogs like ShortShot were made almost 4 years later and remained in Razors Edge yard until around 1999. Then we were reunited with an old friend Curt, and he was placed with him. He had the first RE dog ever made and he got one of the best RE dogs created!

I use him for an example, to explain how these dogs went into other yards and onto other lines and kennels. Razors Edge dogs were always placed amongst friends. That was the point of the line, to share with everyone. A lot of the guys came around years later and also got into this line. No this isn't against True Tank, like it may be perceived. I don't have any problem with that. What I have a problem with is people discrediting the line and saying it's just this and this. Without giving credit to all the years it took to make it. Now the way I see TT posting these days is very respectful. There is an understanding, they use this line as their foundation. Maybe things haven't gone smooth, but now it has gone in a better direction. Respect for that. Respect for using this line."

here's Shortshots ped, Knuckles in second generation back, you can go back and see what kind of dogs went into the foundation of his line

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=231233

here's their new registry

http://www.abkcdogs.org/index.asp?i=42

Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart The people breeding pit bulls were not breeding for looks. They were breeding for performance and temperament. They were breeding dogs that could breath and have stamina. In the 1970's when dog fighting was made illegal in the united states most people only into the dogs for that reason fell away from pit bull breeding.

I don't think the people who were breeding true game dogs before 1976 fell away at all, they just went deeper underground. I think all the media hype pulled a flood of ass holes wanna be dog fighters into the breed, and this contributed greatly to the watering down and poor breeding of APBT's. I don't really think this had any impact on the Bully development though.

Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart The goal for the English Bulldog was to be shorter, wider, with a bigger head. The goal for the American Bully is to be shorter, wider, with a bigger head. The breeders have little regard for what they are doing to the structural soundness of this breeds body. So lets look down the road, lets say 30 years from now. Do you think the American Bully will have the short nose and under bite achieved at that point? Do you think breeders will be aiming for that next? Will American Bullies eventually need to be bred through artificial insemination and have a c-section surgery to born puppies. The American Bully is already a mess structurally. They will probably become drooling snorting pit bull versions of the English bulldog.

I think it will become what the Bully fanciers make it become, irregardless of the EB. I don't really think one has anything to do with the other honestly. I believe they will be genetic disasters by then, if they are even still around. They are already pretty non functional animals now for the most part.

Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart I think this is the reason we are all upset at the changing of our breed. As most will say... we do not hate the dog itself. They are just being bred for all of the wrong reasons. Think about the cost comparison as well. It is not unheard of for someone to spend 1500 on an english bulldog, as well as it's not unheard of for someone to spend 1500 on an American Bully.

First I will disagree with your first sentence, "our breed" or my breed at least is the APBT, and the APBT is still being bred true to form and function, if you know where to look. The American Bully was never intended to replace the APBT IMO, but like the EB, was bred to fit a specific "visual" standard. APBT, AmStaffs, and most likely EB, and other breeds were mixed in to formulate this New Breed.

The major sticking point with APBT fanciers is the use of "our name", the association of such a dog with "our breed". If Bully's were registered and referred to from the beginning as American Bullies I don't think there would be the tension there is today between Bully and APBT people. But let's face it, they're still considered "Pit Bulls" in the eye of BSL. Quite frankly, if these dogs stayed true to their original beginnings, they wouldn't be half bad specimens. But people wanted them lower and wider with bigger head until they were morphed into a genetic, physical and mental container of toxic waste.

People spend $1,500 on an EB today as a result of high breeding & medical costs, people spend that on Bullys due to an inflated market based on buyer ignorance and the breeders greed. I saw something from the Bully Breeder Assoc., or whatever it's called, website instructing their member breeders NOT TO SELL FOR UNDER $2,500 to keep the market inflated on these mutts.

[debo-dumbo-ears]

Originally Posted by tat2stuff The major sticking point with APBT fanciers is the use of "our name", the association of such a dog with "our breed". If Bully's were registered and referred to from the beginning as American Bullies I don't think there would be the tension there is today between Bully and APBT people. I saw something from the Bully Breeder Assoc., or whatever it's called, website instructing their member breeders NOT TO SELL FOR UNDER $2,500 to keep the market inflated on these mutts.

I agree w/ the 1st part - we can't change what other people want to do w/ their dogs, but to call an AmBully an APBT is just wrong & misleading.
And just OMG! about the 2nd part . I guess if someone wants to spend their money that way . . . waddya gonna do?

[TheVictor22]

Originally Posted by tat2stuff I saw something from the Bully Breeder Assoc., or whatever it's called, website instructing their member breeders NOT TO SELL FOR UNDER $2,500 to keep the market inflated on these mutts.

Thats such bull

[FREAKSHOW]

Originally Posted by screamin'eagle All I can on this is the all mighty dollar. Registeries will register many, many dogs as the APBT. http://www.abkcdogs.org/index.asp Alot of people don't know that the American Bully Kennel Club has been formed, and is registering the American Bully by that name as opposed to the APBT. Start getting the word out, and become strict at making the distinctions. An American Bully is what it is, and an American Pitbull Terrier is what it is...and they are two different breeds!

I ask everybody to put the word out. A lot are not aware of the difference between the two breeds so people still tie them together. Like I said from the very beginning....Am bully owners don't care if their dogs are mutts, mixed, or what have you. They like the breed for what it is.

I posted the info. on one of the bully forums and most accepted the separation of the two breeds hands down.

[fearlessknight]

Originally Posted by screamin'eagle I'll respond more when I have more time, but one thing that wasn't accounted for in the original post is that EB blood was used in formulating the American Bully... on that note...How can they become something they already are? In otherwords, although the APBT name was hijacked the American Bully is not a case of selectively breeding poor specimens, and after many generations creating something different. There is evidence that Bull Mastiff and EB was used in formulating this breed.

Nice post SE.....

Posted by TAT2STUFF

First I will disagree with your first sentence, "our breed" or my breed at least is the APBT, and the APBT is still being bred true to form and function, if you know where to look. The American Bully was never intended to replace the APBT IMO, but like the EB, was bred to fit a specific "visual" standard. APBT, AmStaffs, and most likely EB, and other breeds were mixed in to formulate this New Breed.

I could not agree more...this right here is the BIGGEST problem with associating the "breeds" in the news....People think they are all the same.....

NOT TO SELL FOR UNDER $2,500 to keep the market inflated on these mutts.

And I am sorry, to whomever it was that disagreed with this......have checked the papers lately? Do you think this type of dog goes for less than that of a used car? LMAO.....Well it doesn't they are the highest priced mutts on the market!

mutt

1 : a stupid or insignificant person : fool
2 : a mongrel dog : cur

mongrel

1. An animal or a plant resulting from various inter-breedings, especially a dog of mixed or undetermined breed.
2. A cross between different breeds, groups, or varieties, especially a mixture that is or appears to be incongruous.




cur

1 : a mongrel or inferior dog
2 : a surly or cowardly fellow

They are what they are.....mutts!

[FREAKSHOW]

Well it doesn't they are the highest priced mutts on the market!

They are designer mutts that's why.

[fearlessknight]

Originally Posted by FREAKSHOW Well it doesn't they are the highest priced mutts on the market! They are designer mutts that's why.

Yep....I agree!