[monkeys23]

I've been working on teaching Lily the command "lay down". We usually try it for a few minutes each day with treats. She sort of knows it, but I have to tap the ground because she's got it so ingrained that sit=treat. Now that is a pain in the butt.

It doesn't help that my roommate is getting her into that vicious cycle of sit then down (she did that when we had sparky and he would always lay down instead of sitting). I asked her not to do that, so we'll see if she does.

I know she's plenty smart, so its not as if she's clueless as to what I'm asking her to do... And I don't reward her with treats/pets/praise unless she does the desired behavior I'm asking, so theres no inadvertent reinforcement of undesired behavior or anything.

How do I get her to recognize the verbal command only? Tips for making her recognize what I want her to do?

Its the same thing when we work on "stay" also. She just hasn't quite gotten it yet. We also work on stuff like "drop it", "leave it", "focus", and the whistle I use to call her (she's getting awesome at that one). I know it'll come with time and consistency, but I'd love to hear any helpful pointers ya'll have.

[screamin'eagle]

are you using a clicker?

The capture method I think would help you highlight the differences for your dog.

Don't worry...dog trainers are coming to the rescue...

Originally Posted by monkeys23 I've been working on teaching Lily the command "lay down". We usually try it for a few minutes each day with treats. She sort of knows it, but I have to tap the ground because she's got it so ingrained that sit=treat. Now that is a pain in the butt. It doesn't help that my roommate is getting her into that vicious cycle of sit then down (she did that when we had sparky and he would always lay down instead of sitting). I asked her not to do that, so we'll see if she does. I know she's plenty smart, so its not as if she's clueless as to what I'm asking her to do... And I don't reward her with treats/pets/praise unless she does the desired behavior I'm asking, so theres no inadvertent reinforcement of undesired behavior or anything. How do I get her to recognize the verbal command only? Tips for making her recognize what I want her to do? Its the same thing when we work on "stay" also. She just hasn't quite gotten it yet. We also work on stuff like "drop it", "leave it", "focus", and the whistle I use to call her (she's getting awesome at that one). I know it'll come with time and consistency, but I'd love to hear any helpful pointers ya'll have.

well in my opinion you're working on too many commands at once. i've always had the best results by learning 1....maybe 2 at a time then moving on. you can work 1 command 6 times a day for 10 minutes tops! any longer and i say you're wasting your time. try that and see if you get better results. i have yet to find a command i couldn't teach a dog in a few days except for "bang bang" and nick plays dead. that took a while! :-)

[monkeys23]

Originally Posted by Boogieman well in my opinion you're working on too many commands at once. i've always had the best results by learning 1....maybe 2 at a time then moving on. you can work 1 command 6 times a day for 10 minutes tops! any longer and i say you're wasting your time. try that and see if you get better results. i have yet to find a command i couldn't teach a dog in a few days except for "bang bang" and nick plays dead. that took a while! :-)

I've really only introduced the other stuff a couple times. So its not a big bombardment like it sounded in my first post. We definitely don't work more than 10 minutes (usually less) at a time because no way could I keep her attention on one thing that long.

I feel like she's got recall stuff down pretty darn well and obviously sit. I've just been sneaking in "drop it" when we play fetch because I'd rather not have to chase her down for the ball. I only ever said "leave it" to her once and by some whacked out miracle she did it.

Mkay, I'll work on keeping it to just those few things (i.e. down, focus) for now. That should work better for consistency.

We actually had an impromptu lesson on "down-stay" earlier because I needed to get her attention of Milo (my roommates cat who is not the brightest crayon in the box and runs like a pansy, so Lily gets all concerned about where he's going thus making his cowardly streak worse). She dropped right to the floor, but kept trying to follow me to the kitchen so we'd walk back to the living room and do "down-stay" again. She stayed for a whole ten seconds the longest time, so thats definitely progress. I let her stop after that time for pets. The whole thing probably took maybe 5 minutes.

Part of the reason she listened so well was because I said NO in the "your in trouble voice" when she was following Milo around and she just fell all over herself trying to please me after that because she is so freakin' submissive. It makes me feel terrible when she acts like that and its a bit of an overreaction. But on the plus side her attention was solely focused on me the entire time we were working, which was nice.

Any more ideas, dog trainer type people?

As in show business, timing is everything when teaching a dog .

If you're using a lure to shape a behavior, make sure the lure itself is in the proper position. For down, it's easiest to start with the dog in the sit position. Keeping the lure between your thumb and forefinger, put the lure directly under the chin, and then s l o w l y drop the lure straight down to the ground to between the feet, and once the lure hits the floor, then sloooowly pull the lure out. The treat is to be given only when the belly is on the ground, not a second less. As she grasps the concept, wait a beat before giving the treat. The biggest mistake I catch when using the lure is when the lure is pulled out form the nose, not straight down, and moving too fast for the dog to make the connection. And get her tired first prior to a training session, a tired dog is not only a good dog, but a pliable one as well.

And I don't know how long you've been working with her,but keep in mind that it can take up to 2000 repetitions for a dog to really comprehend one word, sounds like a lot, but when you break it down into daily training sessions, it works out to be about 2 to 3 months .

[Madeleinemom]

Originally Posted by huskylove As in show business, timing is everything when teaching a dog . If you're using a lure to shape a behavior, make sure the lure itself is in the proper position. For down, it's easiest to start with the dog in the sit position. Keeping the lure between your thumb and forefinger, put the lure directly under the chin, and then s l o w l y drop the lure straight down to the ground to between the feet, and once the lure hits the floor, then sloooowly pull the lure out. The treat is to be given only when the belly is on the ground, not a second less. As she grasps the concept, wait a beat before giving the treat. The biggest mistake I catch when using the lure is when the lure is pulled out form the nose, not straight down, and moving too fast for the dog to make the connection. And get her tired first prior to a training session, a tired dog is not only a good dog, but a pliable one as well. And I don't know how long you've been working with her,but keep in mind that it can take up to 2000 repetitions for a dog to really comprehend one word, sounds like a lot, but when you break it down into daily training sessions, it works out to be about 2 to 3 months .

This is exactly the approach our trainer/behaviorist taught us, and it worked very well for us.

FWIW, I found that it took all three dogs longer to learn 'down' longer than other commands.

In addition to the above, we associated a hand signal (other than the initial 'tap/tap'), once the command was being 'grasped': we point one hand down, with the index finger pointing to the floor.

We now can use either the verbal 'down' or the finger pointing down, and we get results.

Originally Posted by monkeys23 I've really only introduced the other stuff a couple times. So its not a big bombardment like it sounded in my first post. We definitely don't work more than 10 minutes (usually less) at a time because no way could I keep her attention on one thing that long. I feel like she's got recall stuff down pretty darn well and obviously sit. I've just been sneaking in "drop it" when we play fetch because I'd rather not have to chase her down for the ball. I only ever said "leave it" to her once and by some whacked out miracle she did it. Mkay, I'll work on keeping it to just those few things (i.e. down, focus) for now. That should work better for consistency. We actually had an impromptu lesson on "down-stay" earlier because I needed to get her attention of Milo (my roommates cat who is not the brightest crayon in the box and runs like a pansy, so Lily gets all concerned about where he's going thus making his cowardly streak worse). She dropped right to the floor, but kept trying to follow me to the kitchen so we'd walk back to the living room and do "down-stay" again. She stayed for a whole ten seconds the longest time, so thats definitely progress. I let her stop after that time for pets. The whole thing probably took maybe 5 minutes. Part of the reason she listened so well was because I said NO in the "your in trouble voice" when she was following Milo around and she just fell all over herself trying to please me after that because she is so freakin' submissive. It makes me feel terrible when she acts like that and its a bit of an overreaction. But on the plus side her attention was solely focused on me the entire time we were working, which was nice. Any more ideas, dog trainer type people?

also, once the dog does have a command down, use one of the 10 minute sessions to practice ALL commands which the dogs knows and does well. this will keep them consistent on the things they have learned.

[Drgnrdr]

Down: (This is a control word you must release them after they do it).Teaches your dog to lie in a prone position on a hip, on the floor.
Put them in a sit, ( you can use your hand signal: palm facing up, like tossing a softball).

When they sit, quickly turn your hand over so your palm faces down, lure them from their nose straight down to the floor and pull the treat towards you while still staying right at their nose, go slow, if you go to fast they will loose interest, tell them "yes" or Click and treat them if they go to a prone position on a hip, on the floor, then praise them and tell them "release" (RW).

Try to get them to lay on there favorite hip when they go down, you can lure them from a sphinx type down by moving your hand around their front legs elbow towards the rib cage after you get them to the floor. Putting them into a "relaxed down" will help keep them there so they don’t "pop" up so easily and quickly.

If their butt comes up off the floor tell them "uh-uh" (NWM), take the treat away from the nose and try again.

You may need to take the treat straight down from their nose to the floor then move it towards their right or left front leg, pushing towards the back leg,(KEEP TREAT AT NOSE THIS IS LURING METHOD) depending on how your dog is sitting, and which hip is their favorite. Some dogs sit sloppy and sorta on a hip already, these dogs it's easier to do this type of method cause it causes them to slide into a down on a hip, which they are already sorta relaxed on.

Keep doing this until they go down in a prone position, on a hip reliably every time you motion them with your hand (palm facing down).

When they do so (by hand signal reliably, 90%)then you can add the word "down" (do not say "down" for sphinx position, only for ON A HIP), as they are in the act of going into the prone position.
Tips if your having difficulties getting them to lay down:: USE A HIGH VALUE TREAT

• Some dogs have difficulty doing this, it is a submissive position and it puts them in a vulnerable state.
• Some dogs do not like laying on our cold hard floor and a mat or towel might change their mind and you’ll be able to get them down.
• Some dogs you can catch the behavior at home, have treats available to you all over your home, watch your dog and when they start to lay down, quietly get treat and as they move into position say "down" mark it (yes or click) and treat then praise and tell them good boy/girl.
• You can also see if using your leg like a tunnel, or coffee table or box, will get them to crawl under to get the treat, this will force them to have to get down to do this, say "down" mark it, treat it, when they crawl under your leg.
• You can give them 2-3 treats (called a jackpot) for finally laying down when your working with them, this makes them want to lay down more often because they get more treats.

Always remember use your "yes" marker, treat, praise and use your RW, in that order.

Do not say down while trying to teach them down, they are doing everything else, like sniff, lick hand and look at hand, you can only ADD the word when they are doing the action, and you only want to say it 1 time, so if you teach them what it is, you'll be able to say it one time, they'll know what you want, never cue a dog to do something they have not learned yet. They will think down...down...DDDOOOWWNNN, DOWN! (some jerk on leash and that becomes part of the command also with alot of dogs, your tapping of the floor may become your dogs hand signal, as the dog sees it) is the cue, and may have to say it like that everytime you tell your dog to down. Also, you want your dog to lie in a prone position on a hip, this puts them in a relaxed down and they will stay there longer if told to do so.
When they finally start to move into a down when lured by you reliably, and you have added the cue word finally, some dogs don't relaize when you stand up and tell them down from an upright position, it is still the same one you have been talking about this whole time. It looks diff from their perspective, because now you are standing and the hand signal is higher up from their face. If you can remain consistent in your inflection (tone) and hand speed of your signal, they might get it, if not start to lure your dog from nose to floor about 5 times, (lure,say down, yes, treat, praise, release), then the next 5 times don't lure to the floor, stop about an inch above the floor, doing all the same, just the height of your hand signal is diff. then after 5 of these, ask for 5, 2" from floor, then 3" then 4"..etc... until you are standing upright and showing your hand signal to the dog from there, if the dog moves towards your hand to sniff lure treat, put treat in your other hand, don't put your cue hand right at their nose keep it an inch or 2 away from nose, (this is after you are now standing upright), you should be able to cue the dog "down" from your upright position.
If the dog downs when you ask for a sit, you need to say "eh-eh! and walk them out of it and ask for a sit again, if you see them start to go into a down, (anticipation by the dog) IMMEADIATELY say EH-EH, and ask for the sit again, tell them yes, good dog and give them a treat or praise them depending on where you are in the training, fading lure or random reinforcing.
You must correct them for what they do wrong, no yelling we just need to let them know what we want.
Eventually the dog will learn "down" is the same (dogs don't normally generalize, it takes time) and will start to do the down when they are standing, instead of having to ask for sit first.

when teaching the stay don't add distance when your trying to teach duration, too much at once, get a solid stay first, that's the way I teach it. NEVER RELEASE THEM AT A DISTANCE AND NEVER RELEASE WITH A TREAT AND TAKE YOUR HAND SIGNAL AWAY ONCE IT'S FLASHED BREIFLY AT THE DOG.
Sorry off track, I can tell you more if you'd like.

But this has gone on longer than I wanted, but I felt it is critical to explain "down" it as much as possible.

[Maddie's Mom]

My issue is Miss Maddie was taught Bow before down (PO) ..So when I try and get her to down she keeps that little butt up in the air!

[monkeys23]

Originally Posted by huskylove As in show business, timing is everything when teaching a dog . If you're using a lure to shape a behavior, make sure the lure itself is in the proper position. For down, it's easiest to start with the dog in the sit position. Keeping the lure between your thumb and forefinger, put the lure directly under the chin, and then s l o w l y drop the lure straight down to the ground to between the feet, and once the lure hits the floor, then sloooowly pull the lure out. The treat is to be given only when the belly is on the ground, not a second less. As she grasps the concept, wait a beat before giving the treat. The biggest mistake I catch when using the lure is when the lure is pulled out form the nose, not straight down, and moving too fast for the dog to make the connection. And get her tired first prior to a training session, a tired dog is not only a good dog, but a pliable one as well. And I don't know how long you've been working with her,but keep in mind that it can take up to 2000 repetitions for a dog to really comprehend one word, sounds like a lot, but when you break it down into daily training sessions, it works out to be about 2 to 3 months .

Okay, that makes a lot of sense!
I think using that will help clear up any confusion she's getting from my signals with the lure.