[Palamino]

I have been pondering weight pull, which I don’t know much about at all – educate me please.


Weight pull is not an equal and fair contest is it? Let’s confine and say for example that we have three bulldogs of equal weight each pulling at different events. All three pull exactly the same amount of weight. Yet all three are not equal and one stands out above the others in terms of ability.

One bulldog pulls a cart on well greased rails with a surface that allows for a good grip to overcome the initial inertia and makes it easy to maintain momentum once inertia has been overcome.

The second bulldog pulls a cart with inflated car tyres on a “carpet type” of surface, not conducive to a good grip etc but not to bad to maintain momentum.

The third bulldog pulls a cart with solid wheels on a very sandy surface, sea sandy type, the effort to overcome inertia here would be great and maintaining momentum would be far greater as well. This dogs pull, in spite of the weight being the same as 1 & 2, would place him in a league above the other two, right? (Wrong?)

So, how are these variances overcome within the rules of weight pull then?

How do the record books reflect these achievments and how do they rank based on this?

Lastly, what would the most weight be ever pulled by a 44 - 50 pound bulldog?

One more - what makes a weight pull Gr CH?

[jbh38]

Originally Posted by Palamino I have been pondering weight pull, which I don’t know much about at all – educate me please. Weight pull is not an equal and fair contest is it? Let’s confine and say for example that we have three bulldogs of equal weight each pulling at different events. All three pull exactly the same amount of weight. Yet all three are not equal and one stands out above the others in terms of ability. One bulldog pulls a cart on well greased rails with a surface that allows for a good grip to overcome the initial inertia and makes it easy to maintain momentum once inertia has been overcome. The second bulldog pulls a cart with inflated car tyres on a “carpet type” of surface, not conducive to a good grip etc but not to bad to maintain momentum. The third bulldog pulls a cart with solid wheels on a very sandy surface, sea sandy type, the effort to overcome inertia here would be great and maintaining momentum would be far greater as well. This dogs pull, in spite of the weight being the same as 1 & 2, would place him in a league above the other two, right? (Wrong?) So, how are these variances overcome within the rules of weight pull then? How do the record books reflect these achievments and how do they rank based on this? Lastly, what would the most weight be ever pulled by a 44 - 50 pound bulldog? One more - what makes a weight pull Gr CH?

Weight pull is an equal and fair contest. The dogs pulling are only judged on the day that they are pulling on the same equipment, on the same surface.

Your scenerio isn't necessarily going to show that any of them are the superior dog. Some dogs are more suited for conditions. Such as, some dogs do great pulling on rails, other dogs are intimidated by them. Even though they usually pull more weight on rails than on a cart, the dog may not perform to it's full ability on equipment they are not familiar with. Some dogs are better on a cart, and some dogs are better on dirt than carpet. There are a lot of variables. The true top dog would be the one that performed well in all three. None of them would be placed in a league above the others. Granted the cart on the sand would be harder to pull, but if that is what the dog is used to, then it wouldn't matter. Some dogs have a harder time on carpet because they slip, on dirt they can dig in and get grip. Anymore, in weight pull, it isn't what you pull on, but what is the competition that you are pulling against that determines the better dog. Different pulling styles will help specific dogs, but if that is the only conditions they ever win under, then it wouldn't matter. If the dog on sand took MWP, but there were weak dogs pulling against it, it wouldn't mean much, but if there were top quality dogs there, then it would mean a lot.

Record keeping is done by each organization, so it depends on what you pull as to where your dog is ranked. Most of the time they are ranked on points earned. And with some organizations, it is just way too easy to earn points. The best dog is not necessarily the top point dog, the top dog is usually the one who picked the pulls where there wouldn't be much competition and they knew they could win and get those points, or with UKC, who can afford to go to the most shows. That needs to change, UKC needs to change it's point program. In my opinion, only the dog that place should earn points, or at least big points. APA is the only organization I have seen where the top point dog is truly the top dog, their point system rewards you for pulling against competition. The more dogs in the class, the more points.

I have no idea what is the most weight pulled by a 44-50 lb dog, but I know my Loea in NC pulled 10,275 lbs on Saturday and took 2nd, Sunday, he pulled 9575 and won, he weighed 48 lbs. They are making tracks out there now that can pull ridiculous weight.

Different organizations have different titles. ADBA is an ACE, you have to earn 100 points to get your ACE then an additional 100 to be ACE of ACE and then you go to ACE of ACE 1, 2, 3, and so on. UKC has different titles, but they are mainly obtained by earning 100 points. APA has their Star title, that is also earned by getting 100 points. IWPA and NKC titles are easy, a dog only has to pull a certain percentage at one pull to get their title, except for pit bulls in NKC, then it is 100 points too, the pits are under different rules in NKC.

[Palamino]

That answer helps, thanks for taking the time Jbn38

Do you have a picture of your Loea? Also, how is she bred? How often would you be training and conditioning and what would that conditioning consist of?


“The true top dog would be the one that performed well in all three.”

This is a sound, understandable answer to me.

“They are making tracks out there now that can pull ridiculous weight”.

Manipulation, always an element.
(I dont want to equate this to matching dogs but what comes to mind is the Gr CH who beat 5 mediocre bulldogs because his owner selectively manipulated this to get the title - then you have the bulldog who only won two and lost one, but he beat two GR CH's on his way there and lost one game to another GR CH.)

Quality of performance always has to be analysed.............

So the man who says that his dog pulled 10,900 pounds when you tell him that your guy did 10,275 - not an apple to apple comparison?

[tat2stuff]

here's a few good sites and threads on training, etc.

http://www.itsmysite.com/cgi-bin/its...&webdir=cdpits

heres a few more sites

http://www.weightpull.com/

http://www.iwpa.net/

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WeightPull.htm

great thread by Marty

http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=328

[bahamutt99]

What JBH said. All dogs are going to be pulling on the same track on the same day. The only variation I've seen is that some clubs have a smaller wheeled cart for the little dogs. But yeah, dogs pull differently depending on the surface and conditions. For example, my dog pulls the best on a wheeled cart on carpet, because there's something about a rails system she just doesn't like, even though the latter allows for higher overall weights. (She also pulls better in summer than winter, for some reason.) There is also the sled-on-snow kind of pull that some clubs hold.

But honestly, I wouldn't consider one dog any better than the other because they pull more on a harder track. Some dogs are just more at home on different surfaces. If some dogs are more at home on snow than others, and hence do better on a snow track, it doesn't necessarily mean they're better pullers than the dog who pulls his heart out only on rails.

Originally Posted by Palamino One more - what makes a weight pull Gr CH?

Never heard of that. The UKC has a weight pull champion title, but even that isn't their highest title. But if you're asking what makes the best possible dog for the sport, it depends on who you ask. Unfortunately, what makes the best pulldog is not always what makes the best bulldog.

For example, here is a dog who has won his UWPCHX title. (I read on another site that he had his UWPCHS, but its not reflected on his owner's website, so I don't really know.)

http://www.rokireds.com/joxer.html

Now, here is another dog who has his UWPCHS, which is the highest title the UKC offers.

http://www.beaconbay.cc/dogs/aussies/keegan/index.html

So here you have two dogs who are both incredible pullers, but not even the same breed. So what makes a supreme weight pull dog? Grit, willingness to please, a sound body and mind. The rest depends on the trainer.

Here, for example, is a correct dog with a great working attitude, but is not the most confident puller because her trainer was an amateur when she was training her up for the sport.

http://www.freewebs.com/bahamutt99/loki.htm

[Palamino]

Thanks tat, bahama, for your time and for that info, it is most useful.
Bahama - Your Loki seems to be doing well, congrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palamino
One more - what makes a weight pull Gr CH?

http://www.rokireds.com/joxer.html (Bahama - If you read in here, you will see the Gr CH comments that I referred to.)

What would a really great weight pull dog do if he was hitched to a weight that it was established he could not pull?

Would he try, realize he could not and stop?
Would he keep trying for a while and stop when he got tired?
Would he keep trying to the point of exhaustion or when his handler made him stop?

[bahamutt99]

Originally Posted by Palamino Bahama - Your Loki seems to be doing well, congrats.

Thank you. I don't pull her anymore, but we do do other things.

http://www.rokireds.com/joxer.html (Bahama - If you read in here, you will see the Gr CH comments that I referred to.)

Joxer is a conformation Grand. Where it says GRCH in his name, that's what they're referring to.

What would a really great weight pull dog do if he was hitched to a weight that it was established he could not pull?

The best dogs will keep pulling, even if they can't move it. They'll keep pushing on the carpet, even if they're not going anywhere. Some will dig for a while, and then stop, but stay leaning into the harness, and sometimes start up again after a pause. Sometimes the handlers will see that the dogs are in trouble and order the dog to stop for a few moments, and then command them to start working again, to see if they can get it the 2nd time around.

The handlers who really care for their dogs over a ribbon will, if they see the dog can't move the load but they're still gamely trying, signal the cart handlers to give the cart a push. That allows the dog to complete their pull and maintain their confidence in themselves. Of course, its no good for points. But sometimes helping them out that one time will enable them to make one last pull on their own steam. And even if they don't, you get to let them finish a winner in their own mind.

[bkwil]

Hey guys thanks for all the info...I have a question i'm a cityslicker and live in an apartment so unlike u country folks i don't have space for a cart how can i train for strength without a cart i have a sled but i can only put so much weight on it.

[screamin'eagle]

A grand carpet mill will increase strenght, but will also make the dog bulky and can increase the chances for kidney damage if used improperly. Also dragging weight in the manner prescribed to build endurance (longer distances with less weight) is very effective for weightpull events. In the beginning teaching a dog how to pull propery on command, and building confidence is more important than doing heavy weight. Building confidence, and pulling on command with great endurance will usually prevent a dog from quitting on a weight he can physically pull. Down the line strenght training may be more important, but not in the beginning.

[bahamutt99]

With a sled you don't need as much weight, because it doesn't build up momentum, and therefore offers greater resistance. When I practice with Loki and her drag sled, I only use between 20 and 50lbs of weight, depending on the surface.

[bkwil]

BAHAMUTT for how long or how far do you go

[bahamutt99]

It depends. Sometimes I will put a light tire on Loki for a half-mile to a mile walk. If I'm doing heavier weights, I do sets. Like maybe 30 sets at 10-15 feet each. Stop and praise after each set.

[bkwil]

Thanks BAHAMUTT...So have you competed yet and if so how did you do

[bahamutt99]

Loki has been competing since 2004. She's done pretty well, but doesn't really enjoy it, so we're pretty much done with that. My other dogs are too young.

[screamin'eagle]

Originally Posted by bahamutt99 Loki has been competing since 2004. She's done pretty well, but doesn't really enjoy it, so we're pretty much done with that. My other dogs are too young.

Loki's also titled, right?

[bahamutt99]

Yah. Loki got the IWPA's top title (23x body weight or better) in her first 3 pulls. She also has her UWPCH through the UKC. I'm thinking about bringing her out for an APA pull, because they've also got titles that can be achieved in 1 pull (I think).

[screamin'eagle]

Originally Posted by bkwil Hey guys thanks for all the info...I have a question i'm a cityslicker and live in an apartment so unlike u country folks i don't have space for a cart how can i train for strength without a cart i have a sled but i can only put so much weight on it.

@bkwil- Do you have a garage?

I am posting this picture with permission from a member on another forum to give you some brain storming ideas. While I still contend that the endurance work and teaching to pull on command is most important (for example Loki does weight between 20-50 lbs. and is titled in weight pull pulling over 23x her body weight)...here is a field expedient garage setup weight pull track...



He shared that the cart he was using fell apart at 800lbs and the track is about 30ft long and 6 feet wide.

[bkwil]

WOW that would be cool but i live in NEW YORK in an apartment so i don't have access to something like that just a lot of parks i can go and train so far what i've done is for heavy day's i go to an apartment complex that has some hill in front of the building and let him pull up the hill for a few reps...to be honest with you the way your doing it i think is better if you look at a guy who works out in a gym and someone who works out doing only callastedics push up and pull up ect. the guy who does callastedics looks stronger aleast when i was doing it i felt alot stronger i hope it's the same with dogs lol