[buddysmom]

It is fascinating ... like watching a car crash.

The old pictures of the dogs are wonderful.

Now, may this history be just that ... total history. Let the cruelty stop with the old men pictuured above. May their sons and daughters, grandsons and grandaughters not follow in their footsteps.

[Lassic]

Great pics, Some i heard of some i haven't. What i dont understand is "Dont take this the wrong way" I am against dog fighting but all the pics on this thread are of dogs that hold the ch tittle from dog fighting and we are so agenst it but in all realism this is wear all our APBT come from and is in there bloodlines we just dont fight them we have them as loyal pets correct me if I am wrong or add to what i am saying please!!!!!!!

[Palamino]

All dog breeds were developed for a purpose - each breed has its own history - history we can deny/ignore, we can never change it.
Our bulldog was bred for many tasks, all of them violent ones that placed his life in great danger. Gripping and holding was his speciality. His greatest challenge came when he was matched against his own kind and it was from the pit that the stable people loving bulldog that we know and love today would emerge.
We owe a debt of gratitude to the "Pitmen" of the past for bringing our breed to where it is today, like it or not, fighting made this breed.

Some of us have such a fascination with the fighting dog, it is almost pathological. I do believe that even those bulldog owners who are anti dog fighting to the absolute extreme would shake the hands and thank the men who cretaed the pitbulldog.

"Civilize him as you please, make him whatever color you like, and Man will still worship the born fighter." (J.T. Foote)

[CynthiaATL]

Originally Posted by Palamino All dog breeds were developed for a purpose - each breed has its own history - history we can deny/ignore, we can never change it. Our bulldog was bred for many tasks, all of them violent ones that placed his life in great danger. Gripping and holding was his speciality. His greatest challenge came when he was matched against his own kind and it was from the pit that the stable people loving bulldog that we know and love today would emerge. We owe a debt of gratitude to the "Pitmen" of the past for bringing our breed to where it is today, like it or not, fighting made this breed. Some of us have such a fascination with the fighting dog, it is almost pathological. I do believe that even those bulldog owners who are anti dog fighting to the absolute extreme would shake the hands and thank the men who cretaed the pitbulldog. "Civilize him as you please, make him whatever color you like, and Man will still worship the born fighter." (J.T. Foote)

I agree 100%. Without these men we would not have your beloved bulldog.

[Noelle's Mom]

I agree with buddysmom, let's pray those times are over. Yes, the dogs were beautiful but they deserved better then what they got.

What I find kind of funny though, is that most of those "Champion game dogs" do not have the "tuck" that everyone seems so obsessed with. Most of them would be considered chunky by the standards that some of the people on here have set. In fact, many of them don't look that different from Fiona who I have been told is overweight, unhealthy, and pudgy because her stomach doesn't look all sunken in.

[Michele]

Without those men in the pictures, we would not have this fabulous breed that exists now.

You can hate them all you want, hate what they stand for but the bottom line is they created what you all love today.

[buddysmom]

No one would disagree that they created the breed, Michele

But they are the past. The present and future have to be different ... like it or not.

[screamin'eagle]

Originally Posted by Noelle's Mom I agree with buddysmom, let's pray those times are over. Yes, the dogs were beautiful but they deserved better then what they got. What I find kind of funny though, is that most of those "Champion game dogs" do not have the "tuck" that everyone seems so obsessed with. Most of them would be considered chunky by the standards that some of the people on here have set. In fact, many of them don't look that different from Fiona who I have been told is overweight, unhealthy, and pudgy because her stomach doesn't look all sunken in.

First of all...I am sure you know this, but there is a difference between a chain weight and a conditioned weight. Not only were most of the above dogmen experts at caring for their animals, but they were good enough to bring their dogs into a contest as a specified weight. If there was a contract to match dogs at 46lbs...you better bring the dog in at 46lbs or lose your money. That level of attention to detail in regards to an animals health is something that we all can learn from. Those men knew, much like professional boxing, the lightest an individual can be without losing strength. Now they dogs do not live at the peak of conditioning indefinately, and are usually bigger on the chain. Now I haven't seen pics of your dog, but remember that in general 2 extra lbs on a dog is equal to 10 extra lbs. on a human. Gut fat is as unhealthy to a dog as it is to us. As for the "the got better than what they deserved comment" I challenge anyone to say the care for their dog (in regard to exercise and nutrition) better than any dog in keeps. Seriously, this expert from Eugene Glass' Sporting Dog Terrier published in 1914 will sum up my point...

"
On returning, give him a good hand rub, always rubbing with the play of the muscles Then put your dog in his quarters until three o'clock in the afternoon. At that time take him out for a short walk, long enough for him to empty out Then hitch him to the training machine (described elsewhere) for a run of three minutes Then take him for a slow walk until he gets thoroughly cooled off. Then take him to your training quarters and rub him well with a Turkish towel, following this with a good hand rub as in the morning. Then wash his feet, first with clean water, and then with a wash made of white oak bark steeped in water. This will toughen his feet. Then allow your dog all the boiled water he will drink. Twenty minutes
later feed him his daily meal This should consist of about one pound of thoroughly boiled lean beef chopped fine and made into a mush with corn meal. This should be sufficient for a day's feed for a forty-five pound dog
I usually take three pounds of first-class lean beef and boil until soft, leaving about two quarts of the broth on it I then sprinkle in enough corn meal to make a thick mush, stirring the mixture until the corn meal is well
cooked. Cool this and you have sufficient for three days' feed"

Now techniques have progressed since 1914, but if anyone of us is putting more preparation time and care into our dogs kudos. Plenty of exercise, foot rubs, rub downs with turkish towels, and gourmet meal, and plenty of rest for a match dog. I say that our dogs deserve this treatment, and some of us are mistaking ASPCA and humane society injected BS for what it takes to care for a champion dog. Bait dogs, making dogs suffer to be meaner, and all that other BS was a pseudo arguements injected by the humaniacs, and used by todays fighting street trash, but werent practices by professional dogmen. Prior to 1976 the APBT was not in the public hands, and their eventual release to people that had no clue about their quirks, intricacies, and proper temperment is the downfall...not their history. I've seen these pics on the other board, and never get tired of them. Thanks for posting.

[buddysmom]

it's simple. There are people (like me) who believe matching dogs is, was, and always will be wrong no matter WHAT way it was, is, or will be done. There are many other people who do not agree. That is all.

[screamin'eagle]

Then agree that the principles that governed the selective breeding practices for hundreds of years were specifically driven by those who matched dogs. Without them...the loyal, intelligent, athletic, and powerful pet that you have today never would have existed. This is history that is relevant to anyone that owns this breed, and if people deny that they are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. This isn't directed at any individual, but know that the "dog fighting" profile of animal abuse belongs to our generation, and historically speaking match dogs were well cared for. Our contemporaries are the ones abusing dogs, etc., and we learned it not from dogmen but from the media. Many match dogs existed as family pets until conditioned and matched. Furthermore, as cliche as it may sound to some of you...if you ignore history you are doomed to repeat it. You can agree that dogfighting is deplorable, but you can not displace those feelings on how these men and others cared for their animals. If we do this we are not only sadly mistaken, but closed minded and incapable of knowing all we can about this breed. I have a great uncle that matched dogs through the '60's, and '70s. He currently owns about 100 bulldogs, bullmastiffs, and patterdale terriers...all of which work. Believe you can disagree with him all you want, but there is more that he'll teach you about properly caring for, breeding, culling, etc for an APBT than anyone of us could teach him. Ever. Dogfighting is no doubt illegal, but what people think they know and understand about working dogs having learned from a media perspective is far from reality.

[buddysmom]

I do not deny the history, nor do I deny that true dogmen took excellent care of their dogs outside of the ring. My opinion also is not dictated by the media.

But I will never accept that matching dogs was ever right. Apologies to the dogmen portrayed on these pages and to their families; apologies to you and your uncle; but I belive matching dogs was (and is) cruel. I know there are many others who do not agree with me. I am not trying to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind about this either.

I do love this breed and I ACCEPT the people and practices that created all of the wonderful traits that I love about the APBT. I do not deny history; on the other hand I do not have to like it.

An analogy: TO ME the APBT is like a child of rape. Beautiful, unique, and innocent ... yet it would not be here if not for something very ugly. I can love the child yet still hate the event that brought that child into being.

[Noelle's Mom]

Amen buddysmom.

They may have taken great care of their dogs as far as nutrition and exercise and things like that go. But by putting them in a ring, knowing there was a pretty decent chance of them getting chunks ripped out of them just isn't proper care in my books.

[PNWPBR]

I do love this breed and I ACCEPT the people and practices that created all of the wonderful traits that I love about the APBT. I do not deny history; on the other hand I do not have to like it.


That statement right there should sum it up for most people IMO. When I am educating people about the breed I always bring up the history... and when I talk, people gasp or say "That's horrible!"


and then I remind them that it may be, BUT our dogs wouldn't be what they are without the history they have.

[buddysmom]

Originally Posted by PNWPBR I do love this breed and I ACCEPT the people and practices that created all of the wonderful traits that I love about the APBT. I do not deny history; on the other hand I do not have to like it. That statement right there should sum it up for most people IMO. When I am educating people about the breed I always bring up the history... and when I talk, people gasp or say "That's horrible!" and then I remind them that it may be, BUT our dogs wouldn't be what they are without the history they have.

That is true and it is especially important to know their history if one is going to own one of these great dogs, because it helps to explain so much about their special traits, behaviors, and handling needs.

I just get really sick and tired of some people telling me I must not love the breed because I don't "respect" the people who made it what it is.

[Michele]

I just get really sick and tired of some people telling me I must not love the breed because I don't "respect" the people who made it what it is.

I think whenever this subject is discussed, there will be very passionate views on it. The same way you feel passionate about your view, is the same way someone else might feel about their view.

[Galadriel]

I think it's possible to respect someone or something even if you don't agree with them. I respect Elvis for what he did for music, but I don't like his music.
I don't match dogs, and, as far as I'm aware, I don't know anyone who does.
My personal views on dog fighting are a little broader than most peoples, it seems. I'll try to explain without offending anyone =)
When the old dogmen were matching dogs, they were doing it for the betterment of the breed. Man biters and man eaters usually had to go so the trait wasn't passed down. This is why the WELL BRED dogs we have now are so even tempered with us.(not even going to get into the issue of back yard breeders or out crosses with this one) If they didn't meet the requirements as far as tenacity and drive go, they were often speutered and sold or given away as family pets.
Then we have the flip side of the coin. The "dog fighters" like Vick who's practices have NOTHING to do with the breed's history or future. It's about placing bets, trying to be a tough guy. Vick didn't "cull" dogs. He killed them. Yes, culling is killing, but the ways in which the new thugs are doing it is torture first, make a sport out of the death of these dogs. They aren't being taken out because they're dangerous to people, but rather because they aren't turning a buck in the box, and are therefore worthless. They're a tool. Once the tool breaks, it's tossed out with the rest of the trash. They aren't being bred to make stable APBT's, they're only bred if they can make money by throwing good looking pups and good fighters.
I think it's impossible to group old dog men and new punk dog fighters into the same category. It's kind of like saying an APBT is an AmStaff is a Staffy Bull is and American Bully. They may look similar from the outside, but dig a little deeper and you find out they aren't the same dog.

Matching dogs is illegal in the US, period. It's now up to the owners of these dogs to be able to look at their HA dog and say "this isn't correct. This dog should NEVER be bred, and should be put to sleep for his/her own sake and for the sake of people they may come into contact with."

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Noelle's Mom Amen buddysmom. They may have taken great care of their dogs as far as nutrition and exercise and things like that go. But by putting them in a ring, knowing there was a pretty decent chance of them getting chunks ripped out of them just isn't proper care in my books.

And just so you know, those dogs could of jumped the box anytime they wanted to, but didn't. They loved doing what they did.

[tat2stuff]

Originally Posted by Michele And just so you know, those dogs could of jumped the box anytime they wanted to, but didn't. They loved doing what they did.

exactly, if the dog didn't show interest, they would have never even made it to the pit. Money and reputation was riding on the match, a dog that didn't show interest wouldn't be brought to scratch because it would be an embarrassment and a financial loss. JP Colby had his dogs out with friends and family for years as pets until they turned on, and if they didn't turn on they were never matched or breed. This bullshit I see today with bait dogs and cats and these jerkoff's facing off 12 week old pups to encourage them to fight is just ridiculous. You can't MAKE a pit dog want to fight, if it's born into him he will want to fight, if it's not he won't. For the old timers this is how it was, not like these assholes of today who are MAKING dogs fight by cruelty, torture, etc.,thats the true horror of dog fighting today. Few dogs died in the pit back then, or sustained the horrific injuries you see today, they picked their losing dog up before he died, not set them on fire like they do today.

So to sum it up I do respect the old time dogmen, I cherished the time spent and conversation I had with Louis Colby and wish I could sit down and talk Bulldogs with more Dogmen of the past. I embrace the fighting history of this breed, not detest it, because THAT is what makes this breed what it is.

[maryellen]

i agree with you tat, and screaming eagle, and a few others...

[buddysmom]

Originally Posted by tat2stuff Few dogs died in the pit back then

Reading much of the history (for example that which can be found in the pedigrees in this section) I find this comment to be flat out false. Dying in the pit is described as cause of death for many champions.