[rwentz]

Well, can it???

[Madeleinemom]

Not in my opinion.

For me, this is - at best - an obsolete 'sport', which belongs to humanity's darker ages, right along with witch hunts.

I can see competitive weight pulls, agility, dock dogs - I just cannot wrap my mind around watching dogs trying to kill each other ... for entertainment purposes.

IMHO, the activity is rightfully classified as a felony in almost all states.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by rwentz Well, can it???

What kind of question is this intended to be? Dog fighting is ILLEGAL in the US so even if it is done "right", it cannot be done at all.


Rewntz, im going to leave this post open ONLY for you to clarify what you meant by the post and what exactly you were asking. Im going to ask members not to post until the meaning of the question is explained.

Thank you.



Ellena

[rwentz]

Oh I agree completely, I think it's a completely hanus act and can't be done right in any way. The reason I started this thread was simply because I have heard opionions that dog fighting is ok, when done "right". My motive isn't to start trouble or downgrade ANYONE'S opinion.

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by rwentz Oh I agree completely, I think it's a completely hanus act and can't be done right in any way. The reason I started this thread was simply because I have heard opionions that dog fighting is ok, when done "right". My motive isn't to start trouble or downgrade ANYONE'S opinion.

Thank you for that explanation. Maybe next time post a little more in your original post so the mods dont have to worry?

Regardless of done "right" or "wrong" though, it IS illegal and cannot be done so IMO its a moot point and I would hope that the rest of the members here would agree with that.

Now if the question was more phrased like "when dog fighting was legal..." or "was there a right or wrong way that dogmen used to fight their dogs?" or something to that equasion then it might make for a better conversation since I think we have some people on here that are well versed in the history of our breed.

Thanks for understanding.


Ellena

[rwentz]

I'm totally with you on this one, can't argue at all. My point was just that although it is terrible, and illegal, I have heard members who have said they support it when done "right".

Like you, I'm not sure how it can be "right" at all, when it's totally illegal. So I was just hoping to get a more in depth view of those who support it the "right" way.

Thanks for being courteous, I really do appreciate it..

[PNWPBR]

Originally Posted by rwentz I'm totally with you on this one, can't argue at all. My point was just that although it is terrible, and illegal, I have heard members who have said they support it when done "right". Like you, I'm not sure how it can be "right" at all, when it's totally illegal. So I was just hoping to get a more in depth view of those who support it the "right" way. Thanks for being courteous, I really do appreciate it..

Not a problem at all....


Now that all being said, IF someone feels this is something that they want to converse about and respond, please do so in a civilized fashion. (this goes to everyone!)


Thanks guys and have fun on this topic.... I think.

[rwentz]

just postin this to see if my pic shows up

[Michele]

Rwentz: I see your picture. Anyway, dogfighting is illegal. I don't condone it at all, but I understand back in the dark ages why it was done. Other sporting events, such as agility, weight pulling is by far, a better way to have your dog compete.

I would also like to stress that this forum does not and will not promote dog fighting in any way, shape or form. There are so many other sports you can do with this breed, and I think that is what should be focused upon.

[NcPrisonGuard]

I am oing to take a shot in the dark and say this post might be directed more in my direction than others since I made the comment in another thread about dog matching being done "right" Yes.. I do believe it can be done "right".. but I don't think that it is done right very often anymore, and when it is done right the peopl doing it keep their mouths shut and their circle tight. Any how I am not going to elaborate and waste too much open forum time. If you care to Pm me feel free.. but I do not want to argue over who's opinion about matching dogs is right.. If you can stay civil PM away.

[Purple]

"Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he is the only one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot."--Mark Twain


From Pit Bulls On The Web:


THOUGHTS ON DOG FIGHTING

The American Pit Bull Terrier's story is mired in sad reality. Some fanciers, many who call themselves "dogmen", claim that in order to produce the real APBT, the dogs must be fought so they can prove their gameness (i.e. willingness to keep going despite pain and exhaustion). In their opinion, only the candidates that don't quit a fight are true representatives of the breed and should be bred - The others are called "curs" and eliminated.

Those people firmly believe that the abolishment of "Gametesting" would destroy the APBT breed. They therefore feel completely justified to continue exploiting dogs by forcing them into the worse possible form of abuse.

Are they right?

To put things in perspective, let me share my personal experience. I own several "Pet Bulls", all rescue dogs of unknown background. One or two of them "may" be game (I will never know since I don't "test" my dogs), but the rest would most likely qualify as curs since true game dogs are far in between. This mean that most of my dogs hopefully have enough survival instinct to value their life more than to "finish" a fight. Dogmen would call them "quitters", I call them "winners". However, since they are probably not game enough according to fanciers of that bloody sport, they are not worthy of their admiration. I can tell you that my dogs, game or not, are wonderful companions and I am very proud of them. Ironically, they would have received a bullet in the head in the yard of any dogman due to their lack or absence of gameness... None sense? I think so too.

In light of this, we need to ask ourselves; does the APBT breed really need to be saved? We do have the AST breed after all. American Staffordshire Terriers were APBTs until 1936. That year the AKC opened its stud books to a few APBTs that fit a standard they had chosen, and changed the name. The AST was born. A new breed, which was indeed nothing but a Pit Bull taken out of the pit. If we love the look and the temperament of the Pit Bull, we have it with the AmStaff. In my opinion, there is simply no need in this day and age, to continue producing dogs for and via the pit.

Many Pit Bull lovers are completely disgusted by the barbarian practice of dog fighting and don't hesitate to raise a strong voice against this terrible form of animal cruelty. Unfortunately some other people are being influenced by pro-fighting material they read in books and on the net, and decide to close their eyes. Some will even encourage this nonsense to continue by supporting the men and women who throw these dogs in the pit and watch them tear each other apart in order to test their gameness. Some Pit Bull owners push the paradox as far as disapproving dog fighting publicly, but will only buy dogs from gametested lines (i.e.: The breeding stock is fought before being allowed to reproduce). Hypocrisy at its best!

Those folks will even have the nerves to tell you they would never fight their own dog and can't bear the thought of their companion being hurt but for some illogical reasons they believe the suffering of the breeding dogs is justified. This may seem very hard to understand for those of us who would never let an animal get hurt in the name of some barbaric sport, but these people are victim of neutralization techniques from dog fighting advocates and don't have the intelligence to question any of it.

The most common argument used to validate this cruel sport is to claim that Pit Bulls love to fight.... Some of these dogs do fight, this is true, but why? Do they really like it? And if they do, does it really matter? Pit Bulls have been selectively bred to fight for more than a century. If they will not fight, they are eliminated from the gene pool. Is it right to breed a dog, kill the ones that don't fight, and then claim it's ok to fight them because the ones you haven't destroyed “like” to fight? Pit Bull dogs don't love to fight! They are genetically programmed for it!

There are other characteristics like good disposition, stability, superior physical attributes that are presented to provide justification for fighting these dogs. Even *IF* it was true, how important is it really? There are many great breeds of dogs that don't have to live a life of hell to make good pets. The fact is, there really is no justification for what this breed has to endure in the hands of dog fighters.

Pit fighting (call it gametesting if you want), is nothing but a barbaric blood sport invented to fulfill the sick need for violence of cowardly and insecure individuals. Pit Bulls don't have to be fought to be great dogs, and all of us who own wonderful game or not *Pet Bulls* have absolutely no doubt about this.

Those who don't agree with this need to ask themselves a question; Do you really need a game dog to boost your lack of confidence and poor self esteem? Wouldn't you take more pride in your own gameness and courage? I know the answer to that question. Hopefully you do too.

Veronique Chesser
Copyright 1997 edited 2003

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/thoughts.html

[buddysmom]

rwentz, I think it is a fair and good question, maybe more for the "debates" thread ... but there is a problem really with tackling these kinds of questions (though I havee attempted to do it myself).

Here's why: for those on the "yes" side it's not really fair to ask them to elaborate, on on open forum, how something that is a felony in 48 states can be "done right."

It's easy for someone like me; as I have stated in other threads I believe it never can be, and in fact never has been "done right" ... but I have often felt a bit odd about being able to "bash away" while those who disagree with me may feel uncomfortable (for obvious reasons) debating their point in any detail.

[buddysmom]

Purple: I LOVE that piece you posted so much. I have it bookmarked and have read it about 8 times.

[debo-dumbo-ears]

Purple - I love that piece too. It really clarifies what has been going on in my head lately, & what I was trying to spit out a couple of weeks ago in another thread. I don't understand why we still need to test dogs w/ pit fighting. I don't want to fight my dog, therefore I don't care if he's game or not. He's good at what I want him to do & that's enough. Anyone else who has an APBT & wants to do legal activities w/ it, can test it's temperment & drive doing those legal activities - it shouldn't matter to them either if their dog is game or not. I may be naive, but I think the APBT could continue to be a worthwhile breed w/out testing their gameness.
All that being said, I do understand & even have some level of respect for those in the past that created the breed. I've come to accept that it was a completely different time &, in general, animals were thought of differently than they are now. But that was then & this is now & society, to some extent, has changed. Those that fight dogs, be it the "right" or "wrong" way, should have to stay hidden because I don't see any good reason to continue the "sport." Of course, JMHO

[buddysmom]

Sorry I keep posting. I forgot to qualify: I love every part of that piece except the paragraph about the AST.

See here's the thing I donn't get (and neither apparently does the author of that piece) ... must it be, either let the dogmen continue their "secret" illegal practice of "doing it right" or the breed dies?

Does it really have to be either / or???

Of COURSE not. But there needs to be a movement toward a code of responsible breeding that disavows traditional game testing. There are many other ways to keep the APBT breed going strong IMHO.

But I do not think the dogmen will ever go there. They will stubbornly tell you that matching "in the right way" is the ONLY way to preserve the breed. I don't buy it for a second. Believe me, even those that are "doing it right" are getting their rocks off doing it. They are addicted; it is a thrill and as NC said, a "close knit" world. Like the old timers, it is their whole life and passion, and often passed down "father to son." (not to exclude the women; there are plenty of them in it too). I am not so naive as to belive these people are ever going to give that shit up willingly.

[fearlessknight]

Although we do not do it because it is illegal.....
I do believe that the breed would be more preserved had they left well enough alone.
I mean that in every way it sounds....I think it should be legal and furthermore if it were, I think there would be less BYB fights.....for stupidity reasons....I also think that because back in the day it were monitored and not left unattended or left to the END...it was not cruelty....they didnt fight to the end....they just fought to win! If they lost they lost....might have been culled, might have fought later down the road.....
Either way, I think it can be done right IF IT WERE LEGAL...as it used to be done right!

[rwentz]

Fearless I'm not quite sure it wasn't cruel back then. You stated that they were possibly culled if they lost, or fought later on.. Can the dog ever win in that situation?

[rwentz]

I think this is the first time we have agreed.. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Originally Posted by buddysmom Sorry I keep posting. I forgot to qualify: I love every part of that piece except the paragraph about the AST. See here's the thing I donn't get (and neither apparently does the author of that piece) ... must it be, either let the dogmen continue their "secret" illegal practice of "doing it right" or the breed dies? Does it really have to be either / or??? Of COURSE not. But there needs to be a movement toward a code of responsible breeding that disavows traditional game testing. There are many other ways to keep the APBT breed going strong IMHO. But I do not think the dogmen will ever go there. They will stubbornly tell you that matching "in the right way" is the ONLY way to preserve the breed. I don't buy it for a second. Believe me, even those that are "doing it right" are getting their rocks off doing it. They are addicted; it is a thrill and as NC said, a "close knit" world. Like the old timers, it is their whole life and passion, and often passed down "father to son." (not to exclude the women; there are plenty of them in it too). I am not so naive as to belive these people are ever going to give that shit up willingly.

[buddysmom]

rwentz: may be the first time but probably won't be the last

Originally Posted by fearlessknight I also think that because back in the day it were monitored and not left unattended or left to the END...it was not cruelty....they didnt fight to the end....

This just isn't true.

If you go in the American Pit Bull Terrier History section, and look at the pedigrees, there is usually (or always?) a "bio" of the dog at the bottom of each pedigree with accounts of various matches. Often there are casual mentions of dogs being killed in the fights. Sometimes it is even the dog the pedigree belongs to. Here are but two examples:

http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=152
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=151

I ure everyone to go read these pedigree stories. Very eye opening.

[fearlessknight]

Originally Posted by buddysmom rwentz: may be the first time but probably won't be the last This just isn't true. If you go in the American Pit Bull Terrier History section, and look at the pedigrees, there is usually (or always?) a "bio" of the dog at the bottom of each pedigree with accounts of various matches. Often there are casual mentions of dogs being killed in the fights. Sometimes it is even the dog the pedigree belongs to. Here are but two examples: http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=152 http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=151 I ure everyone to go read these pedigree stories. Very eye opening.

I understand what you are saying, but not EVERY SINGLE dog was MADE to fight to death....

You had yours, and I had mine!