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  1. ADBA/UKC/AKC/ABKC Breeds as it pertins to the APBT and Am Sraff and Am Bully

    THREAD SPLIT

    THANKS for the opinions..... i would like to show him in the ring.
    this is a ukc ped
    he def had an ambully look but lots of amstaffs have that look. he is 6 months 5 months in the first pics....14 weeks in the rest. he will not do well in the ambully ring(maybe classic).

    anyone have good tutorials on stacking the right way?


    Shoot Vicki a PM and ask her to grant you access to the American Bully part of the forum, there is a video there on stacking........

    To SageBush.....
    Says who?
    Says me and a whole lot of others.....There is no way in hell your going to tell me that .....
    This

    Is the same breed as this


    Really??? You honestly think both these dogs are the same breed just because they have papers saying so??? Both of these dogs belong to me, one is an American Bully and the other is an American Pit Bull Terrier can you tell me which one is the American Pit Bull Terrier?

  2. Both are APBTs.

    One is exaggerated bully style; kind of overweight. (I use "bully" here as descriptive of one of two styles traditionally seen in American Pit BULL TERRIERS -- not as a nickname for what gets called "American Bully" -- you can't use the word "bully" anymore because it has been co-opted by idiots breeding faulty exaggerated APBTs.)

    The other is exaggerated terrier style, but this is not the ONLY way that American Pit Bull Terriers look. Check up on your history.

    I would fault the first dog more, but it is still recognizable as an APBT. A very faulty purebred is just that -- a faulty purebred...

    Calling the overdone bully style a "breed" is just an excuse to keep on breeding faulty dogs.

    Carla

  3. #3
    Once again, I agree with Carla. Great post.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagebrush View Post
    Those kinds of pedigrees (AKC Am Staf with UKC APBT) *have been called APBTs by UKC for a long, long time.*

    Whether you agree with that or not, at least learn the history and WHY that unique situation occurred in UKC...THAT is what is important.

    Why don't you go to UKC shows and tell those people that they are perpetuating a fraud by entering in the APBT ring...even though they've done it for 75+ years.

    Carla
    Nobody's saying they're "perpetuating a fraud" by showing their dogs UKC The UKC still calls them APBTs and they're not but it's the owners who need to learn their dogs aren't APBTs.
    If i had an AmStaff (not likely but it could happen) i DAMN SURE would show it UKC because I can't stand AKC and its people. But if somebody asked me what my dog was I would say AMSTAFF because the breed name on the ped =/= the real breed (not all the time).

    ---------- Post added at 02:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagebrush View Post
    Both are APBTs.

    One is exaggerated bully style; kind of overweight. (I use "bully" here as descriptive of one of two styles traditionally seen in American Pit BULL TERRIERS -- not as a nickname for what gets called "American Bully" -- you can't use the word "bully" anymore because it has been co-opted by idiots breeding faulty exaggerated APBTs.)

    The other is exaggerated terrier style, but this is not the ONLY way that American Pit Bull Terriers look. Check up on your history.

    I would fault the first dog more, but it is still recognizable as an APBT. A very faulty purebred is just that -- a faulty purebred...

    Calling the overdone bully style a "breed" is just an excuse to keep on breeding faulty dogs.

    Carla
    If you think AmBullys are APBTs you're $#@!ing nuts. I can understand saying that American Bully isn't a breed but to call an AmBully an APBT is $#@!ed. If you think that an American Bully isn't a breed then AmBullies are mutts. There is NO WAY IN HELL they are APBTs.
    Last edited by cliffdog; 07-26-2011 at 02:55 AM.

  5. #5
    So wait.. did we just take two steps back by having someone say that the American Bully is a APBT?? *shakes head*

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pookie! View Post
    So wait.. did we just take two steps back by having someone say that the American Bully is a APBT?? *shakes head*
    Yes because from what I understand, Carla doesn't think that AmBullies are a breed. How anyone can look at those two dogs and call them the same thing just because of papers is beyond me!

  7. #7
    Well I can understand her point on saying AmBullies arent a breed, I can get that.. because they are still scattered in their cl$#@! and not well organized most of the time and very very new still..

    However, calling them one and the same with the APBT is just hogwash..

    I think pretty much anyone with 2 brains cells could see those two dogs are different breeds, everything about them is different, not matter what the damn papers say, they are not the same.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by pookie! View Post
    Well I can understand her point on saying AmBullies arent a breed, I can get that.. because they are still scattered in their cl$#@! and not well organized most of the time and very very new still..

    However, calling them one and the same with the APBT is just hogwash..

    I think pretty much anyone with 2 brains cells could see those two dogs are different breeds, everything about them is different, not matter what the damn papers say, they are not the same.
    I agree. I am trying to figure out if Carla was being sarcastic and pointing out the faults of the registries, owners and breeders that have allowed the Am Bully lines to be bred into Am Staff and APBT lines and continuing to register those dogs as purebred or if she really does think of them as purebred APBT's of different "types" or "styles".

  9. Quote Originally Posted by MJJean View Post
    I am trying to figure out if Carla was being sarcastic and pointing out the faults of the registries, owners and breeders that have allowed the Am Bully lines to be bred into Am Staff and APBT lines and continuing to register those dogs as purebred or if she really does think of them as purebred APBT's of different "types" or "styles".
    UKC does not RECOGNIZE a breed called "American Bully"! How are they supposed to RECOGNIZE them as such, when the dogs have legitimate papers as APBTs per UKC rules? They are simply very, very faulty APBTs and can continue to be registered as such! HOW many times have we preached here that registry is NO sign of quality? HOW would UKC pick and choose which pedigrees/dogs they are NOW supposed to call a different breed? WHAT authority is telling them to do that and to tell thousands of owners with RE just once in the pedigrees that they NO LONGER have APBTs?

    And, yeah, they are different styles (you DO see terrier style, bully style and moderate in the APBT), but some are SO exaggerated as to most likely be excused for "lack of merit" in a conformation ring. But if they have legit papers, they have every right to be in that conformation ring. (and PLEASE if you have PROOF a dog is not bred as on papers, PLEASE give it to UKC, otherwise, what are they supposed to do? Pull papers on every dog they are SUSPICIOUS of? Or just keep on excusing them in the ring because of lack of merit? Don't you think that would send a message?


    Carla

    ---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------

    Oh, and just curious....what "Am Bully" "lines" have been bred into Am Stafs?

    Carla

  10. UKC does not RECOGNIZE a breed called "American Bully"! How are they supposed to RECOGNIZE them as such, when the dogs have legitimate papers as APBTs per UKC rules? They are simply very, very faulty APBTs and can continue to be registered as such! HOW many times have we preached here that registry is NO sign of quality? HOW would UKC pick and choose which pedigrees/dogs they are NOW supposed to call a different breed? WHAT authority is telling them to do that and to tell thousands of owners with RE just once in the pedigrees that they NO LONGER have APBTs?

    And your point would be what? The AKC does not RECOGNIZE a breed called the American Pit Bull Terrier! But other registries do, just like other registries recognize the American Bully! The UKC is trying to weed out the American Bully hence the reason they closed their registry.

    American Bullies are not faulty APBT they are American Bullies as stated to you many times, with their own standards and their own registries, to call the APBT or even faulty APBT is not only an insult to the American Bully but also the APBT and shows how highly ignorant your logic is and it is people like you that does more harm then good by spreading your ignorant opinions....With that I am once again done addressing you because as always you have high jacked a thread to make it about your ill formed opinion.....


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagebrush View Post
    ow are they supposed to RECOGNIZE them as such, when the dogs have legitimate papers as APBTs per UKC rules? They are simply very, very faulty APBTs and can continue to be registered as such
    That is some grade-A $#@!ed trash right there. They have papers but far from legit. EVEN DAVE WILSON admits that other breeds were crossed in so how the $#@! you gonna say they are APBTs?? So if I take an APBT, mix it with a Labrador, hang the papers, I got a $#@!in' pure-bred faulty-$#@! APBT?
    Last edited by cliffdog; 07-26-2011 at 08:45 AM.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
    That is some grade-A $#@!ed trash right there. They have papers but far from legit. EVEN DAVE WILSON admits that other breeds were crossed in so how the $#@! you gonna say they are APBTs?? So if I take an APBT, mix it with a Labrador, hang the papers, I got a $#@!in' pure-bred faulty-$#@! APBT?
    according to the papers yes you have one. I just found out that i gave a pup that is half razors edge half gotti and he is selling the pups for 800 with papers. i know for a fact that the pup i gave has zero bully in it but some how he got papers. bullys have 0 standards

  13. #13
    hahaha. here we go again.

    apparently cross breeding other breeds for 0 purpose other than looks makes it an apbt. i guess that makes amstaffs APBT aswell, try telling that to all the breeders who purposely bred away from the sport because they didnt want to be $#@!oc. with it at all. theyd roll in their graves. well, lets all just call any mollisser breed apbt now too, screw it!

  14. according to the papers yes you have one. I just found out that i gave a pup that is half razors edge half gotti and he is selling the pups for 800 with papers. i know for a fact that the pup i gave has zero bully in it but some how he got papers. bullys have 0 standards

    According to four registries...The ABKC , UBKC, ABBA and now the AADR they not only have standards but they are also registered as AMERICAN BULLIES so your comment is false!


    ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Think we need to get back on topic .....I do not think the OP meant for this to turn into another "APBT vs AmBully" thread ....

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CelticKarma View Post
    According to four registries...The ABKC , UBKC, ABBA and now the AADR they not only have standards but they are also registered as AMERICAN BULLIES so your comment is false!
    [/COLOR][/LEFT]

    ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Think we need to get back on topic .....I do not think the OP meant for this to turn into another "APBT vs AmBully" thread ....
    Awww but some people on this forum like beating dead horses and arguing in circles !!! gawwwddd

    :p

  16. Quote Originally Posted by pookie! View Post
    Awww but some people on this forum like beating dead horses and arguing in circles !!! gawwwddd

    :p
    You got that right....I am sick of certain people high jacking threads just to beat those dead horses....lol

  17. Quote Originally Posted by CelticKarma View Post
    According to four registries...The ABKC , UBKC, ABBA and now the AADR they not only have standards but they are also registered as AMERICAN BULLIES so your comment is false!
    your right i am wrong what are the standards please let me know. i will give you my list

    weight 20 - 150
    height - unknown
    color - any
    head size- any
    coat- any
    did i miss something

  18. #18
    The debate is on topic. There is Am Bully in the ped as well as APBT and Am Staff. So, basically, the debate is valid. The OP has a papered mutt. If he gets to have a papered mutt, we can debate the "muttness".

  19. Quote Originally Posted by MJJean View Post
    T The OP has a papered mutt. .
    It's a UKC pedigree, duly-issued per UKC rules I presume.*

    If anyone has proof that this is a hung pedigree, PLEASE notify UKC.

    If the OP wants to register his dog as an "ambully" that's FINE. The dog remains an APBT in UKC.



    Carla

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagebrush View Post
    Those kinds of pedigrees (AKC Am Staf with UKC APBT) *have been called APBTs by UKC for a long, long time.*

    Whether you agree with that or not, at least learn the history and WHY that unique situation occurred in UKC...THAT is what is important.

    Why don't you go to UKC shows and tell those people that they are perpetuating a fraud by entering in the APBT ring...even though they've done it for 75+ years.

    Carla
    Well one of the problems as well is that allowing the Am Staff to be registered as an APBT in the UKC. Then with UKC papers it can cross to the ADBA as an APBT.

    Am Staffs should not be allowed in the UKC as an APBT. You have those people calling their Am Staff an APBT when in fact it is not. Well not anymore. At one time it was the same breed. But not anywhere close now. There are some lines that have stayed true to conformation standards. But they are few and far between.

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticKarma View Post
    No your right I typed that wrong it was suppose to say Ruffian =AmStaff and Gottie =Bully


    Just because that is what the papers may say does not make it an American Pit Bull Terrier...Hell I have UKC papers on 2 of my American Bullies one is 100% Gotti and the other is 100% Razors Edge, they are not APBT they are American Bullies.....

    As far as the confirmation...The top line looks good, but something seems a miss in the lower front leg area, can't see the chest, the tail set is too high and a little too long but that is all I can tell from the pic
    The way the tail is set is normal for Am Staffs and UKC style APBTs.


    Quote Originally Posted by CelticKarma
    That don't make them right....Like I stated above about my AmBullies having UKC papers they sure the hell are no APBT....Registries are after the money, further more one of the main reasons the UKC closed it's book to single registry for APBT is because so many American Bully people were falsely registering their dogs as something they were not.


    BS....That is why they closed their books to stop it from happening.


    Maybe you should learn your history, the American Bully has only been around for maybe 20 years. Further more American Bullies do not show UKC they would be laughed out of the ring if they were even allowed to show in the first place.

    Mixing AmStaff with American Bully is just wrong .....Also learn some History on the foundation and the final result of the American Bully. Okay I am done addressing you....Carry on =)
    With any registry if the dog has papers they can not stop them from showing. They may not place however they can not forbid them from registering for the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagebrush View Post
    YES, the policy has changed NOW. So all those dogs going back to 1936 (knowing and understanding the history of why things happened that way) are not APBTs per UKC? Can a registry change it mind and policies like that?

    A dog with proper UKC papers has to be allowed in. No dogs are perfect and some are VERY faulty. Shoot, I saw an all-white, red-nosed Am Staf shown once in AKC! It was a duly registered Am Staf! Very faulty, but could not be kicked out of the ring! (didn't win anything either!) I really do want to know if someone has been denied entry into a UKC ring because he had a very faulty dog....once in the ring is where the judging occurs.*

    Carla
    Again the problem is because of the dual registering. If you have an Am Staff stay at the AKC. By allowing the 2 very different breeds to cross has created this mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
    Nobody's saying they're "perpetuating a fraud" by showing their dogs UKC The UKC still calls them APBTs and they're not but it's the owners who need to learn their dogs aren't APBTs.
    If i had an AmStaff (not likely but it could happen) i DAMN SURE would show it UKC because I can't stand AKC and its people. But if somebody asked me what my dog was I would say AMSTAFF because the breed name on the ped =/= the real breed (not all the time).

    -
    If you think AmBullys are APBTs you're $#@!ing nuts. I can understand saying that American Bully isn't a breed but to call an AmBully an APBT is $#@!ed. If you think that an American Bully isn't a breed then AmBullies are mutts. There is NO WAY IN HELL they are APBTs.
    Showing an AM Staff in UKC IMO is wrong. Because it is not an APBT.

    I do not believe Carla thinks that they are real APBT. She just does not believe that Am Bully is a breed. There fore she thinks that they are $#@!ed up versions of the APBT. However some of those Am Bullies have Am Staff lines in their peds as well.

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