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  1. #1

    Breeding imperfect dogs?

    If you were a breeder, or if you are a breeder...

    Would you breed a dog that had confirmation faults?

    $#@!uming the dog has passed all genetic/health testing, has perfect temperment, and excels in obedience/agility/whatever other sport you participate in....

    Would that dog still be worthy to breed if, for example, the dog has a "snipey" muzzle (no clue what that means, lol), mismatched eye color, dewlap on the neck, etc.

    Seeing as how the APBT has been a breed bred for performance first, it would seem that winning in the show ring is of less importance in this breed than others.

    OTOH, IMO, good breeders only breed the cream of the crop and, to me, that means show and go.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Rai_77 View Post
    If you were a breeder, or if you are a breeder...

    Would you breed a dog that had confirmation faults?
    Yeah, since no dog is perfect! If it had a couple of major ones -- like the dog I have here right now with a short neck and poor front $#@!embly -- no I wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rai_77 View Post
    $#@!uming the dog has passed all genetic/health testing, has perfect temperment, and excels in obedience/agility/whatever other sport you participate in....

    Would that dog still be worthy to breed if, for example, the dog has a "snipey" muzzle (no clue what that means, lol), mismatched eye color, dewlap on the neck, etc.
    Yes, those are relatively minor. I know the head can be improved quickly by breeding to a head that is strong in muzzle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rai_77 View Post
    Seeing as how the APBT has been a breed bred for performance first, it would seem that winning in the show ring is of less importance in this breed than others.
    Most breeds have a performance background. For better or worse, conformation showing is a different game that many people choose to play rather than herd sheep, go bird hunting or fight their dogs. Yes, there are purists that say you don't have the BREED unless you are doing original function and breeding only for that. I understand that. If I wanted a high-powered, all-day English setter I would not look in the conformation ring.

    As long as conformation people are realistic about just what their dogs can do and don't misrepresent them as something they are not, then, why not play the conformation-showing game if they want? YES, it could be improved by requiring SOMETHING else of the dogs other than trotting around the ring.


    Conformation showing is here; and the best dogs WILL be those that do some performance as well. Each kind of has it's own little world and there is constant controversy between them that's been going on since "dog shows" were invented!

    Carla

  3. #3
    If I was considering breeding a dog with a conformation fault, it would depend on several things... I think that some faults in ONE dog can be looked over if they are being bred to the right dog with the right background, and the faulty dog also has the right background. I wouldn't breed a dog with a conformational fault that affected performance, like an underbite or leg issues.

    In the end, I would have to weigh the dog's accomplishments against the fault/s and compare them to those of the other dog considered in the breeding.

  4. #4
    Yes I would. You have to look at the overall dog and decide how that conformation fault stacks up against the dog's strengths. All of mine have conformation faults of some description or another. I don't know a dog that doesn't. (Anybody who tells you they produce dogs with "perfect conformation" is most likely either kennel blind or trying to sell puppies.) You can look at a GRCH show winner and see the points where he/she is lacking. Doesn't mean they don't have a lot of strengths to put back into the gene pool.

    Now if the dog was loaded with conformation faults, then you'd have to take a hard look at whether its structure would hold it back in the working arenas. Some of that stuff like ear set and eye shape, just fluff. But if the dog had yucky shoulders and a nasty topline, those are orthopedic issues. I would rather breed a dog that is undershot and has funny ears than, say, a dog that toes out and has no stifle. BUT! If the toed-out, stifle-lacking dog was the better overall in type, I'd try to find a straight-fronted, stifle-adequate bitch to breed him to, and go from there.

    Either way, if I owned a dog that I felt represented the majority of what I wanted out of my program, I'd use him/her in spite of a fault or two. I was brainwashed before I got Loki into thinking that all show dogs were perfect, and that her minor faults made her inferior to what else was out there. I didn't realize then how much I would regret spaying her later as I went along and saw that she was comparable in quality to what was winning. As Carla said, there is no perfect dog. There are dogs that excel in type and structure, and dogs that don't. The one that excel are worthy of being bred, whether they've got a fault or not. (Post health-testing, working titles, blah blah blah.)
    Last edited by bahamutt99; 09-15-2008 at 04:01 AM.

  5. i have a pup that has a slite overshot u cant see it unless u look in his mouth, iv heard of some cases where u can see the top teeth just from lookin out side of the mouth, my dogs isnt that bad also my vet thinks it might get better as he grows,my qustion is if my dog has still has this when he reaches adult but everthing else is right would he still make a good stud?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rai_77 View Post
    If you were a breeder, or if you are a breeder...

    Would you breed a dog that had confirmation faults?

    Every single dog out in the world has conformation faults. The perfect dog will never be achieved in [terms of conformation].

    $#@!uming the dog has passed all genetic/health testing, has perfect temperment, and excels in obedience/agility/whatever other sport you participate in....

    Would that dog still be worthy to breed if, for example, the dog has a "snipey" muzzle (no clue what that means, lol), mismatched eye color, dewlap on the neck, etc.

    Shaker (my avatar) had a somewhat longer muzzle. But he was 1 of the best darn catchdogs I've ever seen. To me, the dog would have to exhibit a serious flaw (extreme overbite, etc.) or have underlying musculoskeletal issues that aren't seen to the naked eye (bad hips) for me to not breed it. And although I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but for me the listing of "is the dog breedworthy" starts with working ability. I'll breed a hardworking drivey catchdog with an underbite and hounddog ears anyday of the almost-perfect conformation dog who has no desire to do anything more than fetch a ball in the backyard.

    Seeing as how the APBT has been a breed bred for performance first, it would seem that winning in the show ring is of less importance in this breed than others.

    The show ring is ruining breeds all across the board. The APBT is hardly is the only one. If ALL breeders would step back from the show ring and go back to the working roots of their breeds, then we'd start to see a drastic improvement in the quality of dogs out there. Instead we've got Bulldogs that need surgery just to breathe, German Shepherds who walk on their hocks, Rottweilers that resemble ginormous bumbling mastiffs, Greyhounds who can't run 100 yards without stopping (if they even have the drive to do so), etc. There is not a single breed that has benefited from the show ring (when the show ring alone has been the sole deciding factor on breeding).

    OTOH, IMO, good breeders only breed the cream of the crop and, to me, that means show and go.

    And I would say "go and show" as the "go" to me is much more important.
    My answers in red.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mike jones View Post
    i have a pup that has a slite overshot u cant see it unless u look in his mouth, iv heard of some cases where u can see the top teeth just from lookin out side of the mouth, my dogs isnt that bad also my vet thinks it might get better as he grows,my qustion is if my dog has still has this when he reaches adult but everthing else is right would he still make a good stud?
    There are many more things to consider other than a slight overbite when considering breeding. Would your dog be able to reproduce? Sure. But should he? That's the real question.

    You shouldn't even entertain the thought until he's 2 years of age. And then, he should be proving himself in the working arena and show arena. He needs to prove that he's got what it takes to improve upon the breed as a whole.

    Out of over 50 dogs, we've (me, 3 brothers, & a good friend) had less than 10 breedings in almost 12 years. Of those breedings, 3 were repeated breedings using the same sire & dam (I'm one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of gals). Although there are many more dogs with the same pedigrees and many great qualities, they just weren't/aren't the best of the best. So they were not and/or will never be bred.

  8. nice answer^

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