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    Razers Edge in The Words of Dave Wilson

    Since everyone seems stuck on the issue lately, I compiled some of the past research I've done on the RE bloodline, hopefully it will clear some things up, like how it is not an APBT :rolleyes:

    In the words of Dave Wilson,

    "Razors Edge was started in MD and DC long before there was ever a Knuckles. My friend Carlos Barksdale and I started it with game dogs. We researched everything we could find. We read every book publicized at that time. Subscribed to many dog magazines like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. We called damn near every breeder that we could find and questioned them. If it said Pit, we were on it. We all had already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. We even had our own Pit club and went hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually we got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game dogs. We purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great "Plumbers Alligator", mainly Mayfield lines. We were very heavy into the game lines. I had dogs from Hemphill/Wilder blood. These were big game dogs.
    Later on I hooked up with George Williams in DC and we purchased a dog we named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo's dad was a bigger catch dog, "Hollinsworth Bull". His mom was a game girl names "Wildsides Ms.Leaky". This was the turn around time when Razors Edge started adding more size.
    The first ever registered "ADBA" Razors Edge breeding was from my Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater. Now CLP Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge dog. We would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again.
    I had another pure Colby male named Dante that was placed in DC with my man Dave Conrad. Dante went on and shook up DC, but that was the old days.
    They banned Pits in PG County and I was forced to move. Eventually through my job in the Pet Store industry I landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in Va. Virginia was the spot for pet lovers! I managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, I bred my own now. I also put fliers n the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge was. I had to move to Va.
    I hooked up with Jeannie Howe who became a co-owner of Razors Edge.
    I met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took it to another level.
    I saw this blue dog named "Steel Town Blue Monday"! I was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the son. He had been researching on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really is the "Pit Guru".
    We first contact $#@! 'n' Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned us onto people in Cali with that blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent us pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame. She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation bitches in the Greyline! So this was years before Greyline was even around.

    We went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, My man Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A's, Minot's Ledge, etc…… We actually purchased a blue brindle female named "Sadey" from Minot's Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A's dogs like "Oreo" and "Reo Speedwagon". Dogs I had seen and liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits eventually were registered as Staffs! I thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog I owned. Then the bottom half of the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs I grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard Stratton, LOL! Then behind them were the same Colby dogs I saw on the top half of the pedigree. So I had this dog that showed the history of the Am.Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. We also purchased a male named "Razors Edge Blue Maxx". His top half was a dog named "StoryTime's Upon this Rock" AKA "Peter" Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He was a big $#@! dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to "Wassuc's Farm Maggie May". I really liked this compact girl. We researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When we got to see the Ryan dogs we were surprised to see they were game dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something I had never seen, I'm sure that's why the AKC people didn't like that line. However; I loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that's what I am talking about! LOL Maxx was our boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big hot Blue Fawn AKC boy.

    In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs I had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for what I was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Paco, was in my opinion actually a throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, The Garretts, etc….We visited them all. Even went down to Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, we went up to Md and met Kimmar Kennels. As soon as I stepped on the ranch, I knew I had found the build I was looking for! The Razors Edge package was almost complete.
    We also had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young Kats from DC used to come down and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an add in the post under the Pit Bull adds, it said "Petey pups". They didn't want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff? Anyway, local Kats knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey's pop, and their boys had a bunch of these dogs. Even some old friends of mine Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. We all also had game stuff in the mix. I tapped into a lot of their dogs as well.
    In Kimmar's yard I learned a lot about breeding and genetics. I spent every weekend there for almost three years. I actually put on a training cl$#@! for all her buyers every Sunday.
    Razors Edge had been breeding now for a few generations. We even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron, also had some York dogs, and some other AKC stuff, we experimented with. Before we got Knuckles or any of them, Razors Edge was already in the game. Kimmar actually used our dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15 dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it's formula. We just wanted a different head. We also were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead! This is where Razors Edge became heavily involved in UKC.
    Ron made a sharp turn and went back into the game dogs. He jumped heavy into the RedBoy line and vanished?
    I started searching for a better head and came into some Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so I had to find that blood somewhere else. I bought dogs from Grapevine Kennels. I hit up Hughzee's, who I believe later on became Chaos Kennels. We had been talking to Pam from Gaff Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So we got a dog from her. We experimented with a lot of lines and different dogs. Razors Edge started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but we still wanted the to be a little more blocky. A few generations later it was pretty much there.

    The reason for posting this is because we have been asked how this line began. Also to show that it goes way beyond the dogs you see today. It wasn't just as easy as breeding two dogs and waiting a couple of generations and calling it a line. This was creation from research, and as you can see, many years and lines went into it. This is just the backbone info too. Razors Edge had many ears to follow before the line was complete.

    Razors Edge Maxx had kids featured on the cover of DogWorld at this time. So the name was out, and Knuckles was still a pup!

    Then one day a man called from an advertisement we placed in The Washington Post. He came by with this little blocky head blue puppy male he called Mr.Brooks. There it was, the final ingredient. By the way, this was 1992 ish. Gary and I collaborated on many breedings from that point on. We both started showing our dogs and doing quite well in the ring. By 1994 Razors Edge had it's final look and was consistently producing it. Thanks to all these lines and people involved. A lot happened from that point on…..but that's an even longer story. A lot of people claim to know these dogs and this line; but this is before they got into the dogs.

    Dogs like ShortShot were made almost 4 years later and remained in Razors Edge yard until around 1999. Then we were reunited with an old friend Curt, and he was placed with him. He had the first RE dog ever made and he got one of the best RE dogs created!

    I use him for an example, to explain how these dogs went into other yards and onto other lines and kennels. Razors Edge dogs were always placed amongst friends. That was the point of the line, to share with everyone. A lot of the guys came around years later and also got into this line. No this isn't against True Tank, like it may be perceived. I don't have any problem with that. What I have a problem with is people discrediting the line and saying it's just this and this. Without giving credit to all the years it took to make it. Now the way I see TT posting these days is very respectful. There is an understanding, they use this line as their foundation. Maybe things haven't gone smooth, but now it has gone in a better direction. Respect for that. Respect for using this line."

    here's Shortshots ped, Knuckles in second generation back, you can go back and see what kind of dogs went into the foundation of his line

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=231233

    here's their new registry

    http://www.abkcdogs.org/


    Come see our gentle 'bullies,' unfairly savaged by a currish editorial

    October 6, 2006 12:50 am

    AS PRESIDENT of Razors Edge and one of the founders of the American Bully, I am appalled by your Oct. 3 editorial "Bully for the bulls?" Your statements are not only offensive but inaccurate.
    The "Back 2 the Bullies" convention to be held tomorrow at the Fredericksburg Expo Center is not for the "celebration of the pit bull" as you allege; it is for public awareness of the American Bully. This is a new breed created more than 15 years ago, and it is a separate breed from the "pit bull."
    We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it.
    Even the part of the lineage that is American pit bull terrier stems from United Kennel Club-registered conformation show dogs! There is also an American Kennel Club-registered show breed in the lineage of this breed called the American Staffordshire terrier. Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding. This breed has been established for over 10 years now.
    The American Bully Kennel Club was created for the registry and promotion of this breed. These dogs have extremely mellow demeanors and were bred for the purpose of companionship. If you had researched the breed or the event, you might have learned more about what you were falsely commenting on.
    We have been hosting these shows for more than four years now and have a great track record with major cities all over the United States. These events have all been a success, and people continue to request them in their areas. We have people flying in from all over the United States, and even confirmed guests from Japan, Italy, and the Philippines.
    These events have been amazing for bringing all types of people together from all over the world--all races and all genders. The amount of public support has been overwhelming. For this area, the event is also helping the local economy. Three major hotels in this area are sold out, not to mention all the restaurants and pet stores that stand to gain business. Major pet stores, pet-feed companies, rescues, animal shelters, attorneys, and other organizations and individuals are backing and sponsoring this event.
    To talk about this event in the context of young girls murdered by a serial killer is sick. How do you think the families of those children feel seeing that incident brought back up and being used in $#@!ociation with a dog show?
    Then to talk about a sanctioned dog show in connection with a mauling by a pack of dogs running at large? The dogs that mauled Dorothy Sullivan weren't even pure pit bulls. But whatever breed they were, the tragedy has no correlation with this show. The poor woman who was mauled deserves more respect than to be brought into a commentary about a dog show. This entire editorial was plain sick.
    At our event, the local animal control office maintains a booth with a donations box set up for its shelter. Also with booths are dog-rescue organizations that inform the public about all the dogs being put to sleep in shelters. Also at show we have a task force that seeks to bring to justice illegal dog fighters. We have a lady who runs programs in the low-income areas of major cities, and who helps underprivileged children through working with dogs.
    We have five nonprofit organizations manning booths. As people from all over the world come to our event, we even have the local police department working there to ensure the safety of all patrons and participants.
    At our event, nothing illegal is being promoted, permitted, or advertised. We have done no wrong at all. Our event simply seeks to certain promote a breed in a positive way.
    Your editorial misinformed the public about the nature of "Back 2 the Bullies" and the breed it highlights.


    DAVE WILSON of Spotsylvania County is president of Razor's Edge, the main company sponsoring tomorrow's Back 2 the Bullies convention.

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...ex_html?page=1


    Dave wrote that letter to the editor in response to this article:

    Bully for the bulls?

    October 3, 2006 12:50 am

    Bully for the bulls? NINE YEARS AGO, movie theaters in the Fredericksburg area decided that a new Morgan Freeman movie called "Kiss the Girls" hit too close to home. In the fall of 1997, it had been just a year since the abduction and slaying of 16-year-old Sofia Silva of Spotsylvania County, and just months since two other Spotsylvania girls, Kristin and Katie Lisk, 15 and 12, respectively, had been abducted and slain under similar circumstances. With the killer at large, local residents were at once in mourning and in fear.
    In a decision that some called sensitive, and some sillily called "censorship," the theaters declined to run the movie, which told the story of a series of kidnap-killings. It was a rare instance of businesses putting community sensibilities ahead of the next buck. "Kiss the Girls" didn't claim any Oscars, but it did gross $60.5 million--none of which came from the Fredericksburg area.
    This coming Saturday, the Fredericksburg Expo Center will host the "Back 2 the Bullies Convention," a celebration of the pit bull terrier, the controversial breed blamed in the March 2005 mauling death of Spotsylvania Countian Dorothy Sullivan, an 82-year-old great-grandmother. The Oct. 7 extravaganza at the Expo Center promises "a family-based fun event," states the Web site of the sponsoring American Bully Kennel Club. Certainly some families will find it just that. "Who would have ever thought that Fredericksburg, Virginia, would be the home of one of the hottest events in history?" the site barks. "Top Bullies and the hottest models on the planet, in the same place at the same time."
    Will the show go on? It looks that way. Is it in good taste in this area, at this time, after the more dangerous side of the pit-bull breed has demonstrated itself in fatal fashion hereabouts? Many, surely, think not.
    Dollar signs have a way of short-circuiting the memory banks. Maybe those who decided that the pit-bull show was a good idea weren't aware of the events of 19 months ago, and the subsequent trial and conviction of the dogs' owner on involuntary manslaughter charges. Or maybe they were, but thought that enough time had elapsed to fête the hackle-raising canine.
    But in this community, a good time is not had by all when pit bulls are the stars of the show.


    http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...0032006/225383

    Now some will argue his letter was taken out of context, or edited by the paper, but the thing is, it was uploaded directly to the website by Dave Wilson himself, as you see it.

    So...don't get me wrong, there are still some nice looking RE dogs, some on this very forum in fact, hell, Whiskey probably has RE blood in him. I think Dave Wilson probably started out with good intentions, but things seem to have spun horribly out of control.

    My last point is how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's when the founder of their line not only doesn't consider them APBT's but denounces them being called "pit bulls" or APBT's? :confused:



  2. #2
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    My last point is how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's when the founder of their line not only doesn't consider them APBT's but denounces them being called "pit bulls" or APBT's? :confused:
    That is what I was wondering as well after reading through....LOL!

  3. #3
    Dont get me wrong some of the bullies look good. Like I seen some red nosed that liked good. But they dont look like they could do much as far as sports go.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tat2stuff View Post
    So...don't get me wrong, there are still some nice looking RE dogs, some on this very forum in fact, hell, Whiskey probably has RE blood in him. I think Dave Wilson probably started out with good intentions, but things seem to have spun horribly out of control. I agree with this too and I own a dog that's RE.
    My last point is how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's when the founder of their line not only doesn't consider them APBT's but denounces them being called "pit bulls" or APBT's? :confused:
    From what I understand, old RE dogs were suppose to have been APBT and AmStaff only...according to some they are essentially the same breed, just different types. This isn't my way of thinking, I'm just saying how some people think. The newer RE dogs also include E. Bulldog so there is no way that they could be an APBT...they're mixbreeds (or a designer breed), so it makes no sense to me how a dog from the new lines can be considered an APBT.

  5. #5
    pitbulldean... red nosed isn't a bloodline of bullies or anything else, just a nose color on a dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitbulldean View Post
    Dont get me wrong some of the bullies look good. Like I seen some red nosed that liked good. But they dont look like they could do much as far as sports go.

    With that said on to Dave Wilson.... he's a $#@! that bred a bunch of mutts like Knuckles and more and pawned them off as APBTs then got called out and started is own kennel club for his $#@!ty $#@! dogs and their kind. He is one of the many that has led to the downfall of our breed.

  6. #6
    I have had American Bully owners show me stuff from Dave Wilson to prove they do have pure APBTs. lol.

  7. #7
    In regaurds to your question, "how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's", it just depends on how far back the name Razor's Edge is in the dogs pedigree. A lot of the early dogs with the RE name were not bred by Dave Wilson. The vast majority of the RE foundation dogs were bred by very reputable APBT breeders.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRose_Kennel View Post
    In regaurds to your question, "how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's", it just depends on how far back the name Razor's Edge is in the dogs pedigree. A lot of the early dogs with the RE name were not bred by Dave Wilson. The vast majority of the RE foundation dogs were bred by very reputable APBT breeders.
    When you get "too far" it is almost means nothing.....far back in the ped is a considerably small percentage and depending on how far back you are talking about, sometimes it cannot be detected.
    Therefore, it does not matter. It still is what it is. They were mixed breed dogs. Period. They are bully bred!
    Why is so important to you to be able to use the name APBT? I mean if it truly is, then maybe you should reconsider what you have?! :)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by fearlessknight View Post
    When you get "too far" it is almost means nothing.....far back in the ped is a considerably small percentage and depending on how far back you are talking about, sometimes it cannot be detected.
    Therefore, it does not matter. It still is what it is. They were mixed breed dogs. Period. They are bully bred!
    Why is so important to you to be able to use the name APBT? I mean if it truly is, then maybe you should reconsider what you have?! :)
    I don't understand what you are trying to say here. What I am trying to say is that the RE foundation dogs, the ones that DW purchased from people like Ellen Kennedy of Minot's Ledge, were not bred by him but by other people who were well known and very sucessful APBT breeders.

    GRCH RE Sadey's Paddington, for example, is out of RE Silver Sady of ML (bred by Ms. Ellen Kennedy) and CH GMJ Mr. Brooks (who is out of GMJ kennels- NOT Razor's Edge). GRCH Paddington was bred by DW using proven ABPT lines so why would she not be considered an ABPT?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by BlueRose_Kennel View Post
    I don't understand what you are trying to say here. What I am trying to say is that the RE foundation dogs, the ones that DW purchased from people like Ellen Kennedy of Minot's Ledge, were not bred by him but by other people who were well known and very sucessful APBT breeders.

    GRCH RE Sadey's Paddington, for example, is out of RE Silver Sady of ML (bred by Ms. Ellen Kennedy) and CH GMJ Mr. Brooks (who is out of GMJ kennels- NOT Razor's Edge). GRCH Paddington was bred by DW using proven ABPT lines so why would she not be considered an ABPT?
    I've heard all of this too...this is why I said there are different ways of thinking. My dog is out of old school RE dogs and GMJ dogs and her breeder insists she's APBT.

    Now, make sense outta this: I spoke with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club) and they said that my dog, from the description I gave them of my dog's parents and her older brother (which are all UKC registered), would NOT be considered an AmBully and that I should go ahead and register her with the UKC as an APBT.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowhead View Post
    Now, make sense outta this: I spoke with the ABKC (American Bully Kennel Club) and they said that my dog, from the description I gave them of my dog's parents and her older brother (which are all UKC registered), would NOT be considered an AmBully and that I should go ahead and register her with the UKC as an APBT.
    Do you have any pics of her that you would be willing to post? I'm just curious!:)

  12. Quote Originally Posted by BlueRose_Kennel View Post
    Do you have any pics of her that you would be willing to post? I'm just curious!:)
    I've posted a pic. of my pup's dam before (1st pic. of course)...the pic. sucks though and it's all I've been able to get from her breeder. Babe is 4 mos. now (2nd pic. of course). She is out of show dog lines. Her sire is brindle/white and her older brother is buckskin (since I've had people say she's a blue whale 'cause she has RE in her, BUT she was NOT bred for color) and they are both built like Babe's dam.
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  13. #13
    I really don't have anything to add, but I think this is a very interesting topic.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowhead View Post
    I've posted a pic. of my pup's dam before (1st pic. of course)...the pic. sucks though and it's all I've been able to get from her breeder. Babe is 4 mos. now (2nd pic. of course). She is out of show dog lines. Her sire is brindle/white and her older brother is buckskin (since I've had people say she's a blue whale 'cause she has RE in her, BUT she was NOT bred for color) and they are both built like Babe's dam.
    Babe is very beautiful Arrowhead- thanks! Her body structure is very simialr to Hachi's at the same age. I have a pic of her somewhere that I will post as soon as I find it...

  15. Quote Originally Posted by BlueRose_Kennel View Post
    Babe is very beautiful Arrowhead- thanks! Her body structure is very simialr to Hachi's at the same age. I have a pic of her somewhere that I will post as soon as I find it...
    Your welcome and thank you :)!

  16. It is possible, Arrowhead, that she won't be a "blue whale" with RE blood. Just check out Boogieman's Nick. He is RE, but he is definitely no "blue whale".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRose_Kennel View Post
    In regaurds to your question, "how can anyone consider these dogs APBT's", it just depends on how far back the name Razor's Edge is in the dogs pedigree. A lot of the early dogs with the RE name were not bred by Dave Wilson. The vast majority of the RE foundation dogs were bred by very reputable APBT breeders.
    Dave Wilson is one of the founders of RE, yes he used some APBT's as foundation dogs, BUT, they were mixed with Amstaffs right from the beginning. The vast majority of the foundation dogs were Amstaff not APBT, he wanted a bigger bulkier dog. So yes, if you go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back to the first few breedings of the line there were APBT's :rolleyes:. There has been nothing in the last 15 years or living today in the RE line that can be called an APBT.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by CoolHandJean View Post
    It is possible, Arrowhead, that she won't be a "blue whale" with RE blood. Just check out Boogieman's Nick. He is RE, but he is definitely no "blue whale".
    She shouldn't 'cause her older brother has the same parents, just from a previous litter, and he didn't grow up to look like one. There's just a lot of people who hear RE and automatically think of the big headed, chesty, elbowed out dogs and so she gets termed a blue whale because of it and her color, I think.

    Yeah, I love Nick! Actually, me, BRK and Boogieman all had this conversation when I 1st joined the forum. Babe's dam and sire look very much like Nick and Hachi in build.

    Since Babe does have AmStaff and APBT in her and they were said to be the foundation of AmBullies, I've been told by APBT people I should refer to her as one. I've been told by AmBully people I should and others I shouldn't. I've been told by others that she'd be considered an AmStaff. Go figure! I refer to her as an AmBully though 'cause she is AmStaff and APBT, but her UKC papers will say she's an APBT. No matter though, I have no intentions of breeder her and like I've said before, I love her no matter what she is :)!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tat2stuff View Post
    Dave Wilson is one of the founders of RE, yes he used some APBT's as foundation dogs, BUT, they were mixed with Amstaffs right from the beginning. The vast majority of the foundation dogs were Amstaff not APBT, he wanted a bigger bulkier dog. So yes, if you go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back to the first few breedings of the line there were APBT's :rolleyes:. There has been nothing in the last 15 years or living today in the RE line that can be called an APBT.
    Thanks, that is what I was talking about. Maybe they can understand this...... LOL

  20. I just reread my post..."I have no intentions of breeder her"...duh, I meant breeding her. LOL!

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